Another Blow to the Constitution

[tionico]

Regarding the truck loaded with weed at the Canadian/USA boundary: yes, this bust was done precisely correctly. AT the boundary, where "a higher level of scrutiny and surrendering of rights" has been deemed appropriate for two hundred years. Also, there was definite probable cause, as they observed through the use of standard X-ray scanning the presence of a hidden compartment below the cattle deck. No problem. What Mr,. Anderson (is that his name, its been a long time now....) endured was neither AT the bourder, nor was there probable cause. I saw an intervies with this chaps lawyer who had researched some things... the drug dogs used at that and similar checkpoints have been trained in certain ways of response... and this dog did NOT exhibit any of this.

Interesting thing.. I also read that just last week the SCOTUS rendered a decision that specifically states a search of the trunk (or other closed compartments) of a vehicle without specific probable cause (and "suspicion" not based on objective evidence was specifically established to NOT be probable cause) NO law enforcement officer may serach without a warrant. SOMEONE must go before a magistrate, state the probable cause and the substance thereof, convince the magistrate of the NEED for the search, specifically name the object of the search (and a blanket category such as "contraband" doesn't cut it....) and the judge must then issue a written warrant. The scope of this decision seems to be sufficiently broad to include searches at such "inland checkpoints". In other words, had this man been harrassed as he was two weeks after the present incident, the search they were demanding would be clearly counter to the decision of the SCOTUS. What I was able to read of the written opinion indicates a strong guarding of the right to freedom from unreasonable search as guaranteed by the Constitution.

Another point needs to be made in response to an earlier post.... someone stated that if we don't like the present laws, vote differently, as they are all put in place by our votes. NOT TRUE. NONE of these specifics (not the inland checkpoints, not immigration and border patrol policies, not inconstitutional but "legal" searches, damaging of property (as these coppers did in Arizona), etc) were the result of any vote WE the PEOPLE have made. No, they are the result of executive orders, and of laws passed by our elected representatives who too often listen to special interest groups who support their political campaings, or don't even read the bills they vote for. The only way our vote can influence these specific issues is to vote the present crew OUT of office, and vote in a new crew who will LISTEN to their constituents (us) and do what is best for US rather than for their own careers. This can NOT happen until enough people become aware of this sort of unconstitutional deprivation of citizen's individual rights. So many are so deep in slumber, and so tranqulised by mainstream media who do NOT report accurately (and too often do not report at all) this sort of abuse.

I wish the issues of illegal aliens, amnesty for those already here, a clearly defined path for foreigners to apply for and obtain legal resident status, and a total sealing of our borders except for the established "gateways" against undocumented foreigners coming in long-term and against contraband.

Now, WHO gets to come in and how/why for how long is a separate issue..... as is what should be barred from entry (cocaine and heroin certainly.... slaves, yes, ban them entry as well (and jail the slave traders)

I am firmly convinced at this point (note caveat... I'm open to sufficient evidence being presented to dissuade me from those present convictions) that the greatest reason the present situation exists is a financial one..... IF the borders are successfully sealed against the intrusions named above, it will largely be the end of the lions' share of the budget for DEA, INS, CIA, amounting to billions annually. In other words, a few thousand employees of these organisations will be hat in hand, queued for the souplines and unemployment checks..... and we can't be having THAT, now, can we?

 

[clearconscience]

I agree with some of your post and disagree with some. I would like to point out the the subject of this thread is doing something about a situation that he doesn't agree with and I'm glad to see people pushing against unconstitutional policy's.

As for talking about discussing the problem and actually doing battle against oppression I must quote Tsun Tsu

"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

Or quote Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon:

"The art of fighting without fighting"

The best weapon we have against oppression is education not bullets, a discussion forum is the place to discuss the problem and the problem is ignorance, you can't fix ignorance with bullets, (yes I know what your thinking) .

I leave you with this:

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me."

I know where fighting over a thin line here, and I completely agree we need to help educate the public especially the people who are ignorant to guns or are just afraid, which goes back to ignorant.
But we need to start pushing the education to a fight of words to the govt, and politicians. You think they care about your education of your rights. They have an agenda. They want you to be dependent on them. They want you powerless. So no matter how many people you get on board with your/our views the govt will still move in the direction they started 200 years ago.
We need to stand up and fight for our rights, not with fists, or guns but by standing together and showing the govt they will not own us. We need to rally the troops per se and let our politicians know we won't stand for this and we know our rights and will not let them be infringed.
We shouldn't be arguing over some dumb guy pushing his "rights" by asking to check his car. Who cares if they search his car? Does it take away from his rights to have a couple beers? Does it take away his rights to have guns? Does it take away his rights to speak his mind our it? No, but by acting like a jerk and not cooperating he looks suspicious. And that would make me not trust him. I trust the police, and the BP I would wish they would search everyone it would make the streets safer. As long as they don't take my gun or arrest me for carrying my gun legally.

 

[clearconscience]

There was a guy in Portland not too long ago that was sitting in his car in downtown in a bad part of town, they passed him a couple times and he looked suspicious so they asked him some questions and they asked to search his car and they found a loaded gun under his seat.
The guy was a convicted felon.
They arrested him and he was later let free because the court decided the police did have probable cause to search his vehicle.

So know we have a convicted felon that has a loaded weapon that feels he's feel to carry and own the street.

Good luck next time your in down town at night.

I hope you have your CHL, but I guess you don't even need that.

 

[tionico]

clearconscience said:

I trust the police, and the BP I would wish they would search everyone it would make the streets safer. As long as they don't take my gun or arrest me for carrying my gun legally.

Border Patrol agents manage to find a small percentage of the creeps at the inland checkpoints. The vast majority of undesirable people and goods never go near them. Remember, these are permanent checkpoints..... those up to something go elsewhere. As far as "trusting the police", I wish you all the best. I'm a normal looking law abiding citizen, and I've been accosted and harrassed FAR beyond anything acceptable in Portland, by Portland City Police. TriMet cops have a wide reputation of being idiots on a power trip. Seattle and Tacoma police are in the same camp, at some times. The San Diego Police used to be about the worst in the Western Hemisphere. I've KNOWN of instances where cops made up evidence and stories to back up their need for "probable cause" in order to search, harrass, beat up. There have been "unexplained" shootings in Portland by cops. Personally, I strongly suspect these border agents imagined the dog "hitting" on this man's car just to get round the man's reticence to allow an unconstitutional search.

Of course, with this very recent Supreme Court decision the principle that the trunk/closed compartment of a vehicle cannot be searched without a warrant is pretty solidly established. I can imagine these border patrol guys heading off to the local court looking for a warrant to search this car. "Well, a trained drug dog "hit" on the car when we walked him by the trunk area". Oh? Tell me exactly what the dog did. "well, it was kinda subtle, but really, you've GOT to believe me, the dog DID "hit". Did he bark, get excited, sit down and point, what was his specific behaviour?"Well, he definitely reacted in a way that let ME know there exists cause to search this man's trunk". now, I asked SPECIFICALLY what did the dog DO? "well, like I said, it was kinda subtle...... BANG.. warrant denied, come back with REAL probable cause. This man has NO record, he lives locally, he maintains his right to freedom from such a search without cause, and states he observed the dog the entire time he was in the vicinity of his vehicle, and further that the dog exhibited NO discernible behaviour. You'll have to let this one go.

CC, what you fail to understand is that if we sit still and silent, making NO fuss as our rights and freedoms are steadily eroded, we WILL soon enough find ourselves wards of the state, and your right to keep and bear will be a distant memory.

And as to this chap, the "felon", stopped with a pistol under his seat.... whatever is this "looked suspicious" business all about? Was he hispanic? Have a beard? Grubby clothes? a scar across his forehead? two teeth poked out? This recent SCOTUS decision specifically establishes that "looking suspicious" is NOT probable cause, the officers involved MUST have something specific.

Now a couple further questions: so this guy was a "convicted felon". How long ago? What crime? Has he petitioned successfully to have his rights restored? Has he served his time, paid his fines? These days there are a LOT of "felonies" that should not be..... possession of stated small amounts of certain "controlled substances". Driving a certain number of MPH above the posted limit. Other crimes that give NO indication a person might be inclined to use violence against another person. Receiving stolen property above a certain dollar value.. and this can happen with NO KNOWLEDGE of the property's situation.. yet the "crime" is "receiving" stolen property, not "middling" or "fencing" or conspiracy to convert. Simple possession of something significant that was stolen... buy a piece of jewelry off Craigslist that's "hot" can get you there.

And so the mere fact he is/was a convicted felon with a firearm is no cause for such fear...... and the statement "he feels he's free to carry and own the street" is a non-sequitur. When YOU carry, do you feel you "own the street"? maybe he doesn't either. Maybe he's got reason to want to protect himself from harm, just like you and I do.

 

[clearconscience]

clearconscience said:



CC, what you fail to understand is that if we sit still and silent, making NO fuss as our rights and freedoms are steadily eroded, we WILL soon enough find ourselves wards of the state, and your right to keep and bear will be a distant memory.

I had a great post and it was long, I hit submit and then it went away. I'm crushed.
And now I don't want to re-type it.

You say you were harassed? In all these places and your the common denominator. Think about it? Maybe it's your fault?
I know a lot fo cops and a lot of people who served in the armed forces. I have never met 1 person that would fight for a govt trying to take away our rights an enslave us. Never met 1 that would turn on me because some politician said so.
These men and women give their lives for our freedom, and their just going to pull a 180?
I think your hearts in the right place but your seriously confused.

Either way obviously you didn't pay attention to what I wrote.
Were fighting the same fight, only your weapon is pointed at friendlies.
And you arguing your point to "spread the word" on a forum that everyone thinks the same way. If your going to fight this fight by spreading the words do it in places where A. they don't know their rights are in jeopardy, or B. those who feel the govt should have control.

You knw what they say, every work place has one, and if you think everyone is nice. Chances are your that guy. So when a cop is being a jerk to you, maybe take a step back and see how your acting.

 

[tionico]

this statement is nonsense, it does not reflect reality, only a "stasitical average", which means some workplaces have two, three, even a dozen holes, whilst others will have none.

Driving down the road in Portland city in my (admittedly ugly) van, pulled over by one cop, started from the git go barking, hollering, threatening. Got my papers (zey ver in oadoah, jah?) went back to his car.. called in two more, they ALL were deliberately baiting me to take a swing at one of them so they could thump me... how do I know this? My driver's window was all the way down on a COLD winter night, and so I could hear every word the three of them were saying. What had I done to provoke this? Driving my (admittedly ugly) van down a city street, legally. The bogus ticket the cop wrote, I drove back from Olympia to fight it (had pictures, the whole bit,,, no way could it stand), the cop knew it was bogus and didn't even show up. So he "won", making me drive two hundred miles on HIS power trip.

I've also read of several other incidents where folks in Portland got heavily abused with no real grounds... some even shot/killed. What about Rodney King, down in LA. So, you ALWAYS and COMPLETELY trust the cops? Sorry for you... I don't. Sure, I respect and cooperate with them, work hard at not provoking or giving "probable cause" for further inquiry. But hey, doesn't every workplace have at least one -hole? That means the Portland Police Department must have at least one (likely more, its a large outfit, right). I simply happened to drive by the wrong parking lot and he followed ME.....)

Read your history books, too... particularly how things went down in Europe through the 1930's and 40's. SURE-- all those soldiers, police, government officials had sworn oaths to do right.... but WHO had the hands that picked up all the firearms? WHO went house to house looking for them? WHO rounded up the Jews and others, herding them into boxcars like so many feral cats, trundling them off to the gas chambers? Go back to our own War for Independence... it was the government in power, so benevolent and committed to the well being of the colonies and her people, that went house to house in Boston, first taking up every firearm they could get, then herding the people out into the streets, marching them out of town, then taking over their houses as barracks and setting armed perimeters to keep them from coming back. "Sorry, folks, you don't live here anymore, WE do, stay out and don't come back". Firing on a peaceful demonstration, killing eight civilians.... "faithful" servants of the government in power, "chust following oadahs, yavohl". Human nature is such that when an individual is faced with the choice of following orders and continuing to eat and enjoy relative peace and safety, on the one hand, or standing up for what is right at risk of one's life and freedom, most often most men will choose the status quo.
Particularly in this age of moral corruption and "truth is what we make it", the man of integrity is a rare beast indeed. Ethics have become whatever leads most surely to MY comfort and safety.

I will, and do, challenge the status quo or an erroneous position wherever I see it... here, on the streets, in town..... truth is truth, wherever found. Lies is lies, wherever found. (not calling YOU a liar, please rest assured of that).

 

[clearconscience]

You knw what they say, every work place has one @$$hole, and if you think everyone is nice. Chances are your that guy. So when a cop is being a jerk to you, maybe take a step back and see how your acting.


this statement is nonsense, it does not reflect reality, only a "stasitical average", which means some workplaces have two, three, even a dozen holes, whilst others will have none.

Driving down the road in Portland city in my (admittedly ugly) van, pulled over by one cop, started from the git go barking, hollering, threatening. Got my papers (zey ver in oadoah, jah?) went back to his car.. called in two more, they ALL were deliberately baiting me to take a swing at one of them so they could thump me... how do I know this? My driver's window was all the way down on a COLD winter night, and so I could hear every word the three of them were saying. What had I done to provoke this? Driving my (admittedly ugly) van down a city street, legally. The bogus ticket the cop wrote, I drove back from Olympia to fight it (had pictures, the whole bit,,, no way could it stand), the cop knew it was bogus and didn't even show up. So he "won", making me drive two hundred miles on HIS power trip.

I've also read of several other incidents where folks in Portland got heavily abused with no real grounds... some even shot/killed. What about Rodney King, down in LA. So, you ALWAYS and COMPLETELY trust the cops? Sorry for you... I don't. Sure, I respect and cooperate with them, work hard at not provoking or giving "probable cause" for further inquiry. But hey, doesn't every workplace have at least one -hole? That means the Portland Police Department must have at least one (likely more, its a large outfit, right). I simply happened to drive by the wrong parking lot and he followed ME.....)

Read your history books, too... particularly how things went down in Europe through the 1930's and 40's. SURE-- all those soldiers, police, government officials had sworn oaths to do right.... but WHO had the hands that picked up all the firearms? WHO went house to house looking for them? WHO rounded up the Jews and others, herding them into boxcars like so many feral cats, trundling them off to the gas chambers? Go back to our own War for Independence... it was the government in power, so benevolent and committed to the well being of the colonies and her people, that went house to house in Boston, first taking up every firearm they could get, then herding the people out into the streets, marching them out of town, then taking over their houses as barracks and setting armed perimeters to keep them from coming back. "Sorry, folks, you don't live here anymore, WE do, stay out and don't come back". Firing on a peaceful demonstration, killing eight civilians.... "faithful" servants of the government in power, "chust following oadahs, yavohl". Human nature is such that when an individual is faced with the choice of following orders and continuing to eat and enjoy relative peace and safety, on the one hand, or standing up for what is right at risk of one's life and freedom, most often most men will choose the status quo.
Particularly in this age of moral corruption and "truth is what we make it", the man of integrity is a rare beast indeed. Ethics have become whatever leads most surely to MY comfort and safety.

I will, and do, challenge the status quo or an erroneous position wherever I see it... here, on the streets, in town..... truth is truth, wherever found. Lies is lies, wherever found. (not calling YOU a liar, please rest assured of that).

Dude are you a mall ninja or something? You sound insane.
You think the cops wanted you to swing at them. Maybe your "van" looks like the one that people use to lure kiddies in wit candy? lol

And Rodney king? Europe 1930s?
Give me a break guy!
How about not reciting the same two things everyone brings up.
How about the black people getting killed by the KKK and the police covering up and /or being a part of it? What about king such and such in 1570 AD?
And look online, you can't believe everything you read.
That's like saying your get the real news from the national enquirer, ok MIB.

You guys are all the same you recite some garbage of a couple bad eggs and spew it as blasphemy!
There's been cases of police even in Portland going too far I will admit that, but your just fighting a cause you know nothing about. You read the Oregonian or watch CNN and think that our govt has concentration camps ready to move us in.
Maybe that's not far from the truth really, but come on figure out what your saying and why your arguing before making yourself look bad.

 

[clearconscience]

And I'm pretty sure State Patrol is the only LEs that have to show up to court. The rest our out there protecting our butt virginity.



Like you Mall Ninja.

 

[Buddhalux]

CC you don't know Tionico's experiences and name calling only makes you reflect poorly to your points of view.

 

[clearconscience]

Sticks and stone.

I asked him and he said he was harassed because he drove an ugly van.
Yeah that happens a lot.
And the police do random checks on pretty much any car that pulls in front of them and they usually target crappy cars. It would appear people who are losers and have warrents or get arrested frequently usually don't have much of a life to get nice cars. Unless there stolen.

 

[Trlsmn]

Sticks and stone.

I asked him and he said he was harassed because he drove an ugly van.
Yeah that happens a lot.
And the police do random checks on pretty much any car that pulls in front of them and they usually target crappy cars. It would appear people who are losers and have warrents or get arrested frequently usually don't have much of a life to get nice cars. Unless there stolen.

I had several things to say about that comment but decided against it, I will just let you flawed thinking in your post speak for itself.

 

[clearconscience]

I had several things to say about that comment but decided against it, I will just let you flawed thinking in your post speak for itself.

I'm a in LE but I know a lot of cops and have been on several ride-a-longs so I'm speaking of my experiences.

So if you have insight please speak up.
Are you in LE? Do you know some new conspiracy theory I'm unaware of?

 

[Buddhalux]

And that's what's flawed with our LE system it seems......

 

[clearconscience]

And that's what's flawed with our LE system it seems......

I meant I'm not in LE. I couldn't do it. I would surely go over board. I wouldn't be able to look at someone who raped, kill, molested someone and not take it out on them.

Were you saying I was wrong with LE? Cause that's not the case and I mis-typed my sentence. But If I was, Yeah I would agree then.
But then again I wouldn't be there long. I would be fired or in jail. And that's why I think so highly of them. They do a job I could never do. That I'm sure most of us couldn't do.

 

[jason97496]

Is this thread finally dieing?

 

[clearconscience]

It died a long time ago. But what's wrong with beating a dead horse?