ATF Empire Building?

[Provincial]

I was at a tour of a wood structural testing lab at Oregon State University recently. During the tour, the guide mentioned testing structural integrity after exposure to fire, and said advanced testing was sent to an Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms laboratory. I asked him if it was because of the Alcohol, and everyone laughed. However, it does bring up the question as to why ATF is the go-to place for fire investigation science.

Because the ATF is a branch of the Department of Justice, it is cross-connected to other enforcement agencies, which may be investigating arson and other types of fires, the DOJ has an interest. The lab is called the Fire Research Laboratory (FRL). Here is a link to the Wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Research_Laboratory

I understand the need for such a research facility, but question why it was placed under the ATF, and whether it should instead be located at, and run by, a university as an educational research facility instead of a government agency. This looks like "mission creep" by an agency known for empire building and stretching its authority. I think Pam Bondi should be looking at this after she is confirmed as Attorney General.

Read More

 

[lucusloc]

I was at a tour of a wood structural testing lab at Oregon State University recently. During the tour, the guide mentioned testing structural integrity after exposure to fire, and said advanced testing was sent to an Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms laboratory. I asked him if it was because of the Alcohol, and everyone laughed. However, it does bring up the question as to why ATF is the go-to place for fire investigation science.

Because the ATF is a branch of the Department of Justice, it is cross-connected to other enforcement agencies, which may be investigating arson and other types of fires, the DOJ has an interest. The lab is called the Fire Research Laboratory (FRL). Here is a link to the Wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Research_Laboratory

I understand the need for such a research facility, but question why it was placed under the ATF, and whether it should instead be located at, and run by, a university as an educational research facility instead of a government agency. This looks like "mission creep" by an agency known for empire building and stretching its authority. I think Pam Bondi should be looking at this after she is confirmed as Attorney General.

The ATF does explosives too. The full official branch name is "The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives" or "BATFE." I am not surprised they have a fire investigation team as that directly relates to explosives (and explosives-caused fires).

But yes, empire building is an inherent flaw with any bureaucracy. If they can claim jurisdiction over some aspect of governance that means more power and more funding that those bureaucrats get to control. There might be better departments to run fire investigation, but the ATF has some of the personnel and expertise to do it with their explosives division, so their argument is why not just consolidate all if it with them for efficiency's sake? I mean, if you were to, say, put fire investigation with the Department of Forestry (who already has a major fire division, including forensics) who over there would handle the explosives aspects of fire investigation? They would either have to hire their own specialists or contract out to the ATF anyway. Keeping it all in house is just part of how they play the game.

 

[Nutty4Guns]

I don't know the answer. I just want to listen to Queensryche now for some reason.

 

[Provincial]

The ATF does explosives too. The full official branch name is "The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives" or "BATFE." I am not surprised they have a fire investigation team as that directly relates to explosives (and explosives-caused fires).

But yes, empire building is an inherent flaw with any bureaucracy. If they can claim jurisdiction over some aspect of governance that means more power and more funding that those bureaucrats get to control. There might be better departments to run fire investigation, but the ATF has some of the personnel and expertise to do it with their explosives division, so their argument is why not just consolidate all if it with them for efficiency's sake? I mean, if you were to, say, put fire investigation with the Department of Forestry (who already has a major fire division, including forensics) who over there would handle the explosives aspects of fire investigation? They would either have to hire their own specialists or contract out to the ATF anyway. Keeping it all in house is just part of how they play the game.

This was related to certification of building systems using engineered wood products, not forestry. Unfortunately, I had some experience recently with researching a forest fire caused by careless human trespassers, and ATF had no involvement with that. I ran a rock quarry for a long time, and our blasting contractors were regulated by ATF. They seem to be everywhere!

My aviation career was regulated by the FAA, who seemed downright reasonable in comparison to ATF and the Mine Safety and Health Administration.

 

[Stomper]

Like most sleaze-bag bureaucrats they probably took the BATFE name out of context (like they do with everything when it's convenient) and dropped out the "arms" from the compound word, "firearms" and figured that was "close enough for government work"....

 

[lucusloc]

This was related to certification of building systems using engineered wood products, not forestry. Unfortunately, I had some experience recently with researching a forest fire caused by careless human trespassers, and ATF had no involvement with that. I ran a rock quarry for a long time, and our blasting contractors were regulated by ATF. They seem to be everywhere!

My aviation career was regulated by the FAA, who seemed downright reasonable in comparison to ATF and the Mine Safety and Health Administration.

Oh yeah, who actually does the investigation will vary by need and circumstance. My point was if oversight (congress, higher up in the executive branch, etc.) thinks it is a good idea to consolidate expertise to increase efficiency someone is going to get that new division even if it is not entirely covered by the core competencies of the department. Specific to your example the investigatory expertise could have been consolidated under the Department of Forestry because they already have a lot of experts in wood burning fires, so expanding out their specialty to cover engineered wood products would seem like an easy match. To many people that would have made a lot more sense than handing it to the ATF.

But when there is not a bureau that already has explicit jurisdiction over that particular task they all get to fight over who should be given that responsibility (and authority and funding). There is a lot of political maneuvering before it all gets sorted, and in this case the ATF did get a good chunk of the responsibility. They are not the only fire investigatory body of course, but that was not the question, the question was why they had involvement in a situation that did not appear to have any bearing on their core competencies in the first place. Bureaucratic capture is the answer.

 

[Provincial]

Yes. Empire Building by the ATF. with help from the Department of Justice. Neither have been admirable agencies lately.

 

[gmerkt]

empire building is an inherent flaw with any bureaucracy.

In Wash. our former AG Bob Ferguson built up a huge empire of attorneys there during his time. Now that he's governor, he wants to slash the number of people at the AG's office in a move to reign in government spending. We'll wait and see how that goes. It's easier to build up bureaucratic empires than take them down.