All Or Nothing Paradoxes.

[Xaevian]

Lobsters are Arthropoda, far removed from "animals".

 

[lucusloc]

Lobsters are Arthropoda, far removed from "animals".

Um, no, they are animals. Kingdom Animalia, just like all the rest of us. They are in Philum arthropoda, which is all the exosekeletal creatures. Animalia also has all the worms, nematodes and various other squirmy things of the multicellular variety.

 

[Xaevian]

You know what I mean.

 

[TTSX]

 

[Certaindeaf]

I find it telling that probably 100% of vegetarians, after ascribing feelings and emotions to the most primitive of life forms, will generally have no problem ending the life of a nine month old human fetus on a whim.
It's almost like a paradox.

 

[lucusloc]

You know what I mean.

Sort of? I use lobsters as a common example in discussions about veganism because they are often the subject of how "brutal" their cooking is. I point out that if we take their biology into account boiling them alive (for which they do not possess appropriate sensory receptors to accurately perceive) is probably more "humane" than stabbing them in the head (on account of their distributed nervous system that spans their whole body). And that is only as far as the concept of "humane" extend to an animal who only barely is comprehending "pain" in the first place. You can drop the thing into a meat grinder and it will not light up its rudimentary brain any more than any other kind of damage the creature can sustain.

But if you mean they are not a higher level animal with a central brain and complex cognitive functions, yeah, I agree with that. I am not sure the hard core vegans care about that part though.

 

[Koda]

And, again, you are using examples from the class of animal that is as close as possible to human capabilities without actually being a human.

Researchers have recently shows that rats experience positive emotions.

 

[Koda]

I find it telling that probably 100% of vegetarians, after ascribing feelings and emotions to the most primitive of life forms, will generally have no problem ending the life of a nine month old human fetus on a whim.
It's almost like a paradox.

Only the irony of that is a paradox. Its actually a mic-drop moment.

 

[lucusloc]

I find it telling that probably 100% of vegetarians, after ascribing feelings and emotions to the most primitive of life forms, will generally have no problem ending the life of a nine month old human fetus on a whim.
It's almost like a paradox.

That is not a paradox, that is letting the mask slip on your true motivations. A good number of vegans I have know have been militantly anti-human more than they have been pro-animal. It did not matter much what the actual impact of their policy on animals was, so long as the impact was also destructive to human well being.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Only the irony of that is a paradox. Its actually a mic-drop moment.

It's a gift.

 

[Certaindeaf]

That is not a paradox, that is letting the mask slip on your true motivations. A good number of vegans I have know have been militantly anti-human more than they have been pro-animal. It did not matter much what the actual impact of their policy on animals was, so long as the impact was also destructive to human well being.

I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Xaevian]

Sort of? I use lobsters as a common example in discussions about veganism because they are often the subject of how "brutal" their cooking is. I point out that if we take their biology into account boiling them alive (for which they do not possess appropriate sensory receptors to accurately perceive) is probably more "humane" than stabbing them in the head (on account of their distributed nervous system that spans their whole body). And that is only as far as the concept of "humane" extend to an animal who only barely is comprehending "pain" in the first place. You can drop the thing into a meat grinder and it will not light up its rudimentary brain any more than any other kind of damage the creature can sustain.

But if you mean they are not a higher level animal with a central brain and complex cognitive functions, yeah, I agree with that. I am not sure the hard core vegans care about that part though.

Yeah, that. You can decapitate insects and they will continue to live many days until they starve. Try that with a koala. That is kinda a big diff, knowatimsayn?

 

[lucusloc]

Researchers have recently shows that rats experience positive emotions.

Yes, again we were never arguing if animals could feel any emotion. The question was if they could experience human equivalent emotion. And more specifically to the vegan topic whether or not that emotional experience was worthy of human levels of consideration and protection.

I submit the answer is "not they are not" and "no they are not", respectively.

 

[Flopsweat]

I find it telling that probably 100% of vegetarians, after ascribing feelings and emotions to the most primitive of life forms, will generally have no problem ending the life of a nine month old human fetus on a whim.
It's almost like a paradox.

That is not a paradox, that is letting the mask slip on your true motivations. A good number of vegans I have know have been militantly anti-human more than they have been pro-animal. It did not matter much what the actual impact of their policy on animals was, so long as the impact was also destructive to human well being.

It's actual evil, the old-time biblical kind, walking among us in modern society.

 

[lucusloc]

It's actual evil, the old-time biblical kind, walking among us in modern society.

Agreed. Of course the obligatory "not all vegans" but enough of them at least that I noticed.

 

[Xaevian]

It's actual evil, the old-time biblical kind, walking among us in modern society.

Challenge their thinking, tell them to eat one!

 

[Flopsweat]

Challenge their thinking, tell them to eat one!

That's pretty dark, but once again very funny at the same time. Of course, some of them would...

 

[lucusloc]

Yeah, that. You can decapitate insects and they will continue to live many days until they starve. Try that with a koala. That is kinda a big diff, knowatimsayn?

Yeah, a koala has far greater capacity for suffering than an arthropod. without looking up any specifics and taking a wild guess, it seems that the degree between the possible suffering of an arthropod and that of a koala is roughly in the same ballpark as a koala and a human. Ok, maybe we need one more step in there, arthropod to fish, fish to koala, koala to human. It is hard to understate how dumb koalas are when compared to your average mammal.

 

[Flopsweat]

Yeah, a koala has far greater capacity for suffering than an arthropod. without looking up any specifics and taking a wild guess, it seems that the degree between the possible suffering of an arthropod and that of a koala is roughly in the same ballpark as a kola and a human. Ok, maybe we need one more step in there, arthropod to fish, fish to kola, kola to human. It is hard to understate how dumb kolas are when compared to your average mammal.

Let me in! I'm just like you! Kinda...

 

[Koda]

The question was if they could experience human equivalent emotion

How do we know that humans are not feeling animal equivalent emotion?