Lever gun compacting rounds

[Mikej]

This is what happens when Freedoms dies get out of adjustment or they get a batch of brass that is too short to hit the roll crimp in the die.
I see people on reloading boards all the time tell others that they never trim pistol brass. This is one place that comes back to bite them. A good reliable roll crimp requires the brass to be a uniform length. If you adjust your die for the average length the long ones are going to have too much crimp and the short ones too little. DR

Thank you! I always hear people that never trim handgun brass, and seem to include roll-crimped ammo too.

If they are going to do this, it helps to use brass at least from the same manufacturer, if not the same lot. Mixed brand pistol brass can cause trim issues.

Using single stage equipment, many experienced reloaders don't seat and crimp in the same stroke. They crimp as a second step. If trim issues are present with the brass, you can compensate for this by dialing down the crimp die a bit and do each one by feel. But having that good feel for crimping depth by the each takes experience.

It's well known that revolver-type cartridges should have cannelured bullets and a good roll crimp. Yet some of the pictures in this thread seem to show factory rounds assembled without crimp.

Trim issues do come into play when using already fired who-knows-how-many-times mixed brass. Which is how I started. I deal with it though. I've got the time.

I would like to have it explained to me, so I can understand, how crimping in a separate step from seating eliminates the problem of different length brass? In my mind, a crimp die is set to stop just after optimum crimp is applied. If brass cases differ between .003"-.010" the crimps won't be the same from case to case.

 

[dangerranger60]

I would like to have it explained to me, so I can understand, how crimping in a separate step from seating eliminates the problem of different length brass? In my mind, a crimp die is set to stop just after optimum crimp is applied. If brass cases differ between .003"-.010" the crimps won't be the same from case to case.

Crimping as a separate step works on taper crimped rounds because it measures the finished product in diameter not in length from case head to crimp. The taper crimp die adjusts the finished diameter. Lees Factory Crimp die uses an adjustable sleeve. Others use replaceable bushings. The roll crimp is a formed ring that depends on the case being the exact length to form a roll on every case the same way. it uses the measurement from the case head to the case mouth to archive this. The taper uses the finished diameter as its critical measurement. Good Luck. DR

 

[Mikej]

Crimping as a separate step works on taper crimped rounds because it measures the finished product in diameter not in length from case head to crimp. The taper crimp die adjusts the finished diameter. Lees Factory Crimp die uses an adjustable sleeve. Others use replaceable bushings. The roll crimp is a formed ring that depends on the case being the exact length to form a roll on every case the same way. it uses the measurement from the case head to the case mouth to archive this. The taper uses the finished diameter as its critical measurement. Good Luck. DR

I still don't get how, if the ram brings a shell up to a fixed point, that two shells of different lengths will have the same crimp? If I were to remove the seater stem from my, say 9mm seater/crimp die, which IS tapered, that I wouldn't get a different crimp on the two different length cases? Unless I was crimping by "feel"?

I get by fine as I do sometimes adjust the the seater stem to get a proper crimp from shell to shell.

I really appreciate the time you take to explain. But I still don't get it. Maybe I'm just dense and STILL missing something that should be obvious.

(sigh)

 

[gmerkt]

I would like to have it explained to me, so I can understand, how crimping in a separate step from seating eliminates the problem of different length brass? In my mind, a crimp die is set to stop just after optimum crimp is applied. If brass cases differ between .003"-.010" the crimps won't be the same from case to case.

Another answer to the same question. (1) Brand new brass or once fired that is same lot, doesn't guarantee exact, identical length. (2) Seating and crimping in one stroke, toward the bottom of the stroke, you are still pushing the bullet into place while the crimp is being applied. Meaning, you are pressing the mouth of the case into the bullet side wall material while it is still moving. Some people don't like to do this. (3) Mixed pistol brass cases often vary in length. But rarely enough to matter in terms of functionality. Cartridges that headspace on the mouth (autos) vice on the rim (revolvers) tend to be more critical about this than the latter. By crimping as a separate step, with mixed trim lengths, you don't set the die to a specific length. You turn it in to the shortest length you are apt to encounter. Then by feel, you individually crimp as needed. You don't reef down on each cartridge to the bottom of the stroke. You "feel" the amount of crimp needed. If a person has any talent for reloading at all, this knack will come fairly easily. The amount of crimp will be uniform enough for general pistol accuracy and will probably be no less uniform than a crimping die set to a specific crimp depth for every cartridge because of inherent (however small) differences in brass that is thought to be of uniform trim.

I use taper crimp dies on all pistol ammo, auto and revolver. I even have a taper crimp die for .41 mag. As I said, crimping into a cannelure on revolver cartridges isn't as critical as those for autos. Any difference in trim length in say, a .38 Special, will crimp into the cannelure. And, most revolver chambers are ramped anyway, not a cut ledge like most semi autos. I only had one 9mm that was baulky about trim length, that was a Smith & Wesson Model 547 revolver that was made to very precise specs. My other 9mm revolvers and all the many 9mm autos never presented problems with trim length. My guess is they make them loose fit enough to account for the differences in manufactured ammo trim length.

Straight wall handgun cartridge brass doesn't tend to grow in length from firing like bottle neck rifle brass does. Trim anomolies are usually from variance in manufacture. For this reason, I try to load in batches that use the same brand/lot of brass. By batching my brass in this way, I wind up with fairly uniform trim lengths. I have trimming equipment for all the handgun calibers I shoot but it doesn't see a lot of use.

The above comments pertain to single stage loading. When I was using a progressive Dillon 550, none of this was ever an issue for me. The components would go in, the finished cartridges would come out. There was no feel in the process for one crimp being any different from another. The ammo all functioned and fired the same. Major ammunition factories have the same experience. If you measure the lengths of new or once fired brass, you can find small differences. Especially rifle brass. It's good enough for general shooting. Accuracy shooters have higher standards. They will weigh cases, turn necks, all sorts of tweaking. But for average shooters, not really necessary for average functionality.

 

[Mikej]

Another answer to the same question. (1) Brand new brass or once fired that is same lot, doesn't guarantee exact, identical length. (2) Seating and crimping in one stroke, toward the bottom of the stroke, you are still pushing the bullet into place while the crimp is being applied. Meaning, you are pressing the mouth of the case into the bullet side wall material while it is still moving. Some people don't like to do this. (3) Mixed pistol brass cases often vary in length. But rarely enough to matter in terms of functionality. Cartridges that headspace on the mouth (autos) vice on the rim (revolvers) tend to be more critical about this than the latter. By crimping as a separate step, with mixed trim lengths, you don't set the die to a specific length. You turn it in to the shortest length you are apt to encounter. Then by feel, you individually crimp as needed. You don't reef down on each cartridge to the bottom of the stroke. You "feel" the amount of crimp needed. If a person has any talent for reloading at all, this knack will come fairly easily. The amount of crimp will be uniform enough for general pistol accuracy and will probably be no less uniform than a crimping die set to a specific crimp depth for every cartridge because of inherent (however small) differences in brass that is thought to be of uniform trim.

I use taper crimp dies on all pistol ammo, auto and revolver. I even have a taper crimp die for .41 mag. As I said, crimping into a cannelure on revolver cartridges isn't as critical as those for autos. Any difference in trim length in say, a .38 Special, will crimp into the cannelure. And, most revolver chambers are ramped anyway, not a cut ledge like most semi autos. I only had one 9mm that was baulky about trim length, that was a Smith & Wesson Model 547 revolver that was made to very precise specs. My other 9mm revolvers and all the many 9mm autos never presented problems with trim length. My guess is they make them loose fit enough to account for the differences in manufactured ammo trim length.

Straight wall handgun cartridge brass doesn't tend to grow in length from firing like bottle neck rifle brass does. Trim anomolies are usually from variance in manufacture. For this reason, I try to load in batches that use the same brand/lot of brass. By batching my brass in this way, I wind up with fairly uniform trim lengths. I have trimming equipment for all the handgun calibers I shoot but it doesn't see a lot of use.

The above comments pertain to single stage loading. When I was using a progressive Dillon 550, none of this was ever an issue for me. The components would go in, the finished cartridges would come out. There was no feel in the process for one crimp being any different from another. The ammo all functioned and fired the same. Major ammunition factories have the same experience. If you measure the lengths of new or once fired brass, you can find small differences. Especially rifle brass. It's good enough for general shooting. Accuracy shooters have higher standards. They will weigh cases, turn necks, all sorts of tweaking. But for average shooters, not really necessary for average functionality.

You explain this exactly the way I see it, from the short ten years I've been doing it. IF I were interested in extreme accuracy with long gun rounds that would add other steps I'd need to pay attention to.
This part "You don't reef down on each cartridge to the bottom of the stroke" became obvious when I started loading roll crimped rounds. I never had a problem with taper crimped rounds. I learned pretty quick that the slightest resistance at the bottom of the stroke would remove the bell in the case. In everything thing written so far there's still nothing saying that a crimp only die does anything different than a crimp/seating die would do with the seater stem removed. Seems to me that, for straight wall handgun rounds, a person could have a crimp only die by just removing the seater stem and use it as a crimp only die after setting it to seat only?

 

[gmerkt]

I get by fine as I do sometimes adjust the the seater stem to get a proper crimp from shell to shell.

By this, it sounds like you are referring to a revolver cartridge with a cannelured bullet. Unless you have trim lengths that vary a lot, probably this procedure is not all that necessary as the cannelure allows for some deviation. Depth of cannelure will determine how much you can get away with. Most cannelures are fairly deep. A few are shallow and take more care with a roll crimp.

The idea of roll crimping revolver cartridges is to incur a kind of wedge that prevents the bullet from moving under recoil. Hence the need for a cannelured bullet. However, the process with auto pistol cartridges doesn't include this idea. With auto cartridges, you only want to push the brass case back so far against the side wall of the bullet as to eliminate the tiny air gap at the mouth. That's it, you don't want to make the case bite into the bullet.

By design the roll crimp is pretty severe. The taper crimp is more gentle and allows for greater deviation. Taper crimp dies vary, too, from brand to brand. My least favorite is Redding, which is pretty severe. Or at least in the ones I've owned. Next down is Lyman. After that, getting into the ones I like, is RCBS. My favorite simple taper crimp die was made by the old management CH. The earlier Lee taper crimp dies, so-so, but now they have the pistol Factory Crimp Die. I like these a lot, very gentle taper. I used one of these when I loaded progressive. Now I have one that I sometimes use single stage.
.

 

[gmerkt]

Seems to me that, for straight wall handgun rounds, a person could have a crimp only die by just removing the seater stem and use it as a crimp only die after setting it to seat only?

This is absolutely true. The difference being the technique with which it is used.

And if you have perfect components, with exact dimensions from one to the next, and you don't mind the crimp grinding into the side of the bullet while it's still being seated, you can combine seating with crimping and reef all you want. As I used to when I started years ago. But over time I got more fiddly with how my product came out.

Purpose-made separate crimp dies usually give a better crimp than the crimp built into combination seater-crimp dies. In my experience.

 

[RVTECH]

Purpose-made separate crimp dies usually give a better crimp than the crimp built into combination seater-crimp dies. In my experience.

Mine too.

I started with a Lee collet style factory crimp die for .30-30 and now have one for .357.

I routinely crimp non-cannelured bullets with it and never have had a bullet compacting problem like the OP has.

 

[Member 5605]

Upon inspection, these rounds had ZERO roll crimp. Their mouth was more square than a right angle, mouth tension alone was holding the rounds in place.

There was a cannalure but these bullets were seated deep enough that it was not showing. Still within specs but just at the short end of those specs.

Slight roll crimp was applied, edge was taken off just enough to make them look darn near perfect.

 

[UnionMillsNW]

Special thanks to @Dyjital for letting me come over and teaching me a thing or two. Awesome guy.

I loaded up a tube of the newly crimped rounds. Will report back in a few days.

 

[Member 5605]

Pulled the couple that were left here for experimentations...

No signs of crimps on the cannelure or any rolling of brass from a roll crimp.
loaded with 4.4gr of this black coal.

 

[UnionMillsNW]

Really interesting @Dyjital .

I wonder what Freedom Munitions would say about their quality control...

 

[Member 5605]

Really interesting @Dyjital .

I wonder what Freedom Munitions would say about their quality control...

Like everyone else.
"Our QC is top notch"

 

[Mikej]

Pulled the couple that were left here for experimentations...

No signs of crimps on the cannelure or any rolling of brass from a roll crimp.
loaded with 4.4gr of this black coal.

View attachment 845772 View attachment 845773 View attachment 845774

Any idea on what the powder could be?

 

[Member 5605]

Any idea on what the powder could be?

Not sure, if I wanted to sleuth it, I could find on the Hodgdon website a powder for 158gr pills that will take a range to accommodate 4.4gr of powder.

Then look on the website that shows what powder looks like (I've lost the link) and narrow it down rather easily... just takes time.
You could rule out flake, ball and stick.

 

[edzz]

Not sure, if I wanted to sleuth it, I could find on the Hodgdon website a powder for 158gr pills that will take a range to accommodate 4.4gr of powder.

Then look on the website that shows what powder looks like (I've lost the link) and narrow it down rather easily... just takes time.
You could rule out flake, ball and stick.

I'd wager it's smokeless powder.

 

[msgriff]

Looks like flattened ball. Really crappy flattened ball, probably from pulls.

 

[UnionMillsNW]

UPDATE:

I loaded the tube the night @Dyjital assisted me in putting a crimp on the rounds. Cycled the tube today... one was completely impacted. Dang.





Put the rest back and a second one impacted. Dang again.







Shot 100 rounds over the course of 2 hours and had one round recess enough to not cycle.

Loaded the tube and left it for four hours.... one round impacted.

So the problem isn't fixed. This may just come down to me needing to feed the 1873 better food.

I appreciate everyone's help

 

[deadeye]

UPDATE:

I loaded the tube the night @Dyjital assisted me in putting a crimp on the rounds. Cycled the tube today... one was completely impacted. Dang.

View attachment 855792

View attachment 855793

Put the rest back and a second one impacted. Dang again.

View attachment 855794





Shot 100 rounds over the course of 2 hours and had one round recess enough to not cycle.

Loaded the tube and left it for four hours.... one round impacted.

So the problem isn't fixed. This may just come down to me needing to feed the 1873 better food.

I appreciate everyone's help

View attachment 855795

My offer still stands.......
another thought would be to see if shortening the magazine spring to lighten the tension a little would help. I did notice though that the crimp ring on the extreme bullets you have is not as deep looking as it should be. Maybe just a tad more roll crimp is needed to contact the crimp ring edge and stop them from setting back.

 

[Mikej]

another thought would be to see if shortening the magazine spring to lighten the tension a little would help.

It may be too coarse/heavy gage of wire in the spring too? That doesn't make sense that the manufacturer wouldn't know what kind of spring was appropriate.

Question @UnionMillsNW ...Have you tried pushing the bullet into the case by hand against the edge of the bench? I would think it would be pretty easy if you getting them pushed in by the tube spring.

I don't recall, are you trimming cases to within .002"-.003"?