National Pistol Brace Rule Compliance - How to

[VinnieBoomBah]

I dunno. I was basing my understanding soley on the fact that... as they said... proof of your successful application is acceptable proof that you are now in compliance with the new SBR rule and your SBR is considered exempt from arrest or prosecution, except in the event your stamp application is ultimately denied. [paraphrasing]

Why then would it matter if you have a brace or stock since both fall into the general category of "SBR"?

It's possible they didn't really mean to say "SBR" and really meant "your illegal braced pistol is exempt"... only...

It may be you have to wait, but I would be curious where it says that in the final rule.

**Your SBR is now illegal but it's not an SBR until it's an SBR(??) I wouldn't disbelieve that type of bent rationale coming out of the alphabet either... so....

Maybe that will be specifically addressed in one of the upcoming webinars(?)

This is from the FAQ's, but we all know what they are worth. IIRC the first version said you could not change the brace for a stock until you were approved, but that's dumb if it's already an SBR

10. ONCE THE FIREARM IS REGISTERED AS A SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE (SBR) CAN I REMOVE/CHANGE THE "STABILIZING BRACE" OR ATTACH AN ITEM MARKETED AS A STOCK? IF SO, AM I REQUIRED TO NOTIFY ATF IN ADVANCE? • Yes, the firearm is registered as an SBR, and you can change out the "brace" device or stock for a different brace or stock. You do not need to contact ATF/NFA because changing the brace/stock 5 does not change the configuration of the SBR. However, if the length of the firearm has changed you will need to notify the NFA Division.

and

25. PRIOR TO AND AFTER THE EXPIRATION OF THE 120-DAY TAX FORBEARANCE, CAN I CONTINUE TO POSSESS MY SBR EQUIPPED WITH A "STABILIZING BRACE" IF I HAVE TIMELY SUBMITTED MY APPLICATION TO REGISTER MY FIREARM? • Yes. Provided you are not otherwise prohibited from possession of a firearm under Federal or State law, you may continue to lawfully possess your SBR while your registration application is pending with ATF. While your application is pending, you should maintain proof of submission as evidence of continued lawful possession.

 

[CamoDeafie]

I dunno. I was basing my understanding soley on the fact that... as they said... proof of your successful application is acceptable proof that you are now in compliance with the new SBR rule and your SBR is considered exempt from arrest or prosecution, except in the event your stamp application is ultimately denied. [paraphrasing]

Why then would it matter if you have a brace or stock since both fall into the general category of "SBR"?

It's possible they didn't really mean to say "SBR" and really meant "your illegal braced pistol is exempt"... only...

It may be you have to wait, but I would be curious where it says that in the final rule.

**Your SBR is now illegal but it's not an SBR until it's an SBR(??) I wouldn't disbelieve that type of bent rationale coming out of the alphabet either... so....

Maybe that will be specifically addressed in one of the upcoming webinars(?)

Probably not, it's possible they are expecting people to submit photos of whole gun and then from there, any evidence online of the configuration change from "unregistered SBR with pistol brace" to "unregistered SBR with actual rifle stock" might have them go after people for not paying the $200 tax? edit. It's because "you're making a new non-tax exempt configured SBR from a previously tax exempt configured SBR" at least, one interpretation could be read that way.

This is from the FAQ's, but we all know what they are worth. IIRC the first version said you could not change the brace for a stock until you were approved, but that's dumb if it's already an SBR

10. ONCE THE FIREARM IS REGISTERED AS A SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE (SBR) CAN I REMOVE/CHANGE THE "STABILIZING BRACE" OR ATTACH AN ITEM MARKETED AS A STOCK? IF SO, AM I REQUIRED TO NOTIFY ATF IN ADVANCE? • Yes, the firearm is registered as an SBR, and you can change out the "brace" device or stock for a different brace or stock. You do not need to contact ATF/NFA because changing the brace/stock 5 does not change the configuration of the SBR. However, if the length of the firearm has changed you will need to notify the NFA Division.

and

25. PRIOR TO AND AFTER THE EXPIRATION OF THE 120-DAY TAX FORBEARANCE, CAN I CONTINUE TO POSSESS MY SBR EQUIPPED WITH A "STABILIZING BRACE" IF I HAVE TIMELY SUBMITTED MY APPLICATION TO REGISTER MY FIREARM? • Yes. Provided you are not otherwise prohibited from possession of a firearm under Federal or State law, you may continue to lawfully possess your SBR while your registration application is pending with ATF. While your application is pending, you should maintain proof of submission as evidence of continued lawful possession.

Yeah, that right there seems double speak contradictionary...

If it's already considered a "SBR", why did they say wait until approved to swap "brace stock" for "rifle stock"? But now they're saying it should be all good to go pending approval to "continue to possess SBR"; regardless of whether the brace stays or go?

 

[wired]

This is from the FAQ's, but we all know what they are worth. IIRC the first version said you could not change the brace for a stock until you were approved, but that's dumb if it's already an SBR

10. ONCE THE FIREARM IS REGISTERED AS A SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE (SBR) CAN I REMOVE/CHANGE THE "STABILIZING BRACE" OR ATTACH AN ITEM MARKETED AS A STOCK? IF SO, AM I REQUIRED TO NOTIFY ATF IN ADVANCE? • Yes, the firearm is registered as an SBR, and you can change out the "brace" device or stock for a different brace or stock. You do not need to contact ATF/NFA because changing the brace/stock 5 does not change the configuration of the SBR. However, if the length of the firearm has changed you will need to notify the NFA Division.

and

25. PRIOR TO AND AFTER THE EXPIRATION OF THE 120-DAY TAX FORBEARANCE, CAN I CONTINUE TO POSSESS MY SBR EQUIPPED WITH A "STABILIZING BRACE" IF I HAVE TIMELY SUBMITTED MY APPLICATION TO REGISTER MY FIREARM? • Yes. Provided you are not otherwise prohibited from possession of a firearm under Federal or State law, you may continue to lawfully possess your SBR while your registration application is pending with ATF. While your application is pending, you should maintain proof of submission as evidence of continued lawful possession.

Once registered. Not once applied

 

[CamoDeafie]

Once registered. Not once applied

The problem is as pointed out, if it's "already an unregistered SBR" ; does it really matter the brace/stock configuration between applying/pending and approved? If so, why?

 

[ar man]

The atf bipolar interpretations and meanings.

 

[Yarome]

This is from the FAQ's, but we all know what they are worth. IIRC the first version said you could not change the brace for a stock until you were approved, but that's dumb if it's already an SBR

10. ONCE THE FIREARM IS REGISTERED AS A SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE (SBR) CAN I REMOVE/CHANGE THE "STABILIZING BRACE" OR ATTACH AN ITEM MARKETED AS A STOCK? IF SO, AM I REQUIRED TO NOTIFY ATF IN ADVANCE? • Yes, the firearm is registered as an SBR, and you can change out the "brace" device or stock for a different brace or stock. You do not need to contact ATF/NFA because changing the brace/stock 5 does not change the configuration of the SBR. However, if the length of the firearm has changed you will need to notify the NFA Division.

and

25. PRIOR TO AND AFTER THE EXPIRATION OF THE 120-DAY TAX FORBEARANCE, CAN I CONTINUE TO POSSESS MY SBR EQUIPPED WITH A "STABILIZING BRACE" IF I HAVE TIMELY SUBMITTED MY APPLICATION TO REGISTER MY FIREARM? • Yes. Provided you are not otherwise prohibited from possession of a firearm under Federal or State law, you may continue to lawfully possess your SBR while your registration application is pending with ATF. While your application is pending, you should maintain proof of submission as evidence of continued lawful possession.

10. The context of the question is asking "once the firearm is registered"... not, "before my application is approved, can I....".
The answer seems to affirm that they are not diferrentiating or qualifying the response on the basis of an "SBR" or "brace equipped pistol" only basis.

25. That question is limited to "my SBR equipped with a stabilizing brace". Again.. not addressing the brace vs. stock issue, but you notice in the answer that, again, they do not seem to distinguish a difference between a "brace equipped pistol" and an "SBR".

"You may continue to lawfully possess your SBR while your registration application is pending with ATF. While your application is pending, you should maintain proof of submission as evidence of continued lawful possession."


My take-away from the above still seems to say... you're good to go with a brace OR stock since an "SBR" is an "SBR". Or at least... I don't see anything there that expressly states I man not put a stock on my SBR until after my application is approved.... or that the alphabet is distinguishing their responses differently based on being a "braced pistol" vs. an "SBR".

Also in expressly noted in there... " changing the brace/stock does not change the configuration of the SBR"

Not that it doesn't say that somewhere I'm not aware of......

 

[wired]

The problem is as pointed out, if it's "already an unregistered SBR" ; does it really matter the brace/stock configuration between applying/pending and approved? If so, why?

Registered is a word with a meaning

 

[Yarome]

Once registered. Not once applied

Yup. The question was... "once registered"... and they replied, "once registered".

There is nothing in there asking or answering about "once application is made" so... one does not include or preclude the other. Only an assumption as it is not specifically asked or answered.

The implication I see is that there is no distinction between the two as far as the final rule is concerned. An "SBR" is an "SBR" and they specifally stated that, "changing the brace/stock does not change the configuration of the SBR"

Makes you wonder!

 

[CamoDeafie]

Also in expressly noted in there... " changing the brace/stock does not change the configuration of the SBR"

Not that it doesn't say that somewhere I'm not aware of......

The issue I'm seeing right now and I can see it being a bigger issue..

1. You gotta have a stabilizing brace either attached or able to attach to a pistol/firearm to qualify for the Tax Exempt Form 1 (submit with it attached if they ask for photo of whole firearm, something not seemingly required for regular Form 1s, FWIW, I haven't gotten an email asking for one)

2. If you are "making a regular ol' SBR "via 80%, stripped lower, AR15 pistol not equipped with a brace ; you still gotta pay the $200 Form 1 tax stamp and all that it entails ,(no putting it together until tax stamp arrives whenever if approved) even during the 120 day period. Also, if you have a smoothbore firearm with a less than 18" barrel and only a pistol grip, you're fine, but if it has a brace, it is a SBS ( ) and not exempt from a $200 tax. (Remove permanently (sell or give away?) or destroy brace and you're good in theory, and clear of "unregistered SBS" drama)

Taking that into consideration, it does seem to favor keeping the brace on the "unregistered SBR" until approved and registered, and then swap brace for stock, as opposed to swapping prior to approval and registered but after submitting application

 

[Wombat of Doom]

I submitted efts and I am getting a cover letter with request for fingerprints. Is this normal? Do I still need to send in physical cards as well?

 

[CamoDeafie]

I submitted efts and I am getting a cover letter with request for fingerprints. Is this normal? Do I still need to send in physical cards as well?

@wired Ask him?

Might be eft is overwhelmed?

 

[Yarome]

The issue I'm seeing right now and I can see it being a bigger issue..

1. You gotta have a stabilizing brace either attached or able to attach to a pistol/firearm to qualify for the Tax Exempt Form 1 (submit with it attached if they ask for photo of whole firearm, something not seemingly required for regular Form 1s, FWIW, I haven't gotten an email asking for one)

2. If you are "making a regular ol' SBR "via 80%, stripped lower, AR15 pistol not equipped with a brace ; you still gotta pay the $200 Form 1 tax stamp and all that it entails ,(no putting it together until tax stamp arrives whenever if approved) even during the 120 day period. Also, if you have a smoothbore firearm with a less than 18" barrel and only a pistol grip, you're fine, but if it has a brace, it is a SBS ( ) and not exempt from a $200 tax. (Remove permanently (sell or give away?) or destroy brace and you're good in theory, and clear of "unregistered SBS" drama)

Taking that into consideration, it does seem to favor keeping the brace on the "unregistered SBR" until approved and registered, and then swap brace for stock, as opposed to swapping prior to approval and registered but after submitting application

I guess I read it as them now saying... you own an SBR. To qualify for a free stamp only the brace equipped SBR's qualify. Once you have met the application requirement how is the brace still applicable? They clearly state that "changing the brace/stock does not change the configuration of the SBR"

If it's an SBR "now" (vs. it's "something else" now and registration approval suddenly make it an SBR) then how does that statement not apply to your SBR in it's current, pre approval, configuration?

They further state that during the amnesty period that proof of your application allows you to continue to use your pre-built SBR until your stamp is approved. Where does it say only braced pistols may be continued to be used until your stamp is approved? They only mention "SBR's" as a whole, which does not change configuration by swapping a brace for a stock, right?

I agree that the safest bet is to keep the brace on, but I haven't personally seen anything that would make me believe that putting a stock on your SBR, after the application process has been satisfied, that would meet any stated condition that would change it from being a "legal to continue to use" SBR to an "illegal to continue to use" SBR.

It's in the realm of possibility that there may be, but if there is it would seem to be contradictory to a number of statements they've already made that don't seem to support that.

YMMV

 

[Yarome]

I have a question. If it ends up taking a year or two for final approvals, does that mean folks are stuck with a brace on their SBR's even though they have an "SBR" and have met all the requirements to properly comply with the new rule?

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

I have a question. If it ends up taking a year or two for final approvals, does that mean folks are stuck with a brace on their SBR's even though they have an "SBR" and have met all the requirements to properly comply with the new rule?

If the ATF hadn't done anything wouldn't they be using the brace for the same amount of time anyway?

 

[CamoDeafie]

I guess I read it as them now saying... you own an SBR. To qualify for a free stamp only the brace equipped SBR's qualify. Once you have met the application requirement how is the brace still applicable? They clearly state that "changing the brace/stock does not change the configuration of the SBR"

If it's an SBR "now" (vs. it's "something else" now and registration approval suddenly make it an SBR) then how does that statement not apply to your SBR in it's current, pre approval, configuration?

They further state that during the amnesty period that proof of your application allows you to continue to use your pre-built SBR until your stamp is approved. Where does it say only braced pistols may be continued to be used until your stamp is approved? They only mention "SBR's" as a whole, which does not change configuration by swapping a brace for a stock, right?

I agree that the safest bet is to keep the brace on, but I haven't personally seen anything that would make me believe that putting a stock on your SBR, after the application process has been satisfied, that would meet any stated condition that would change it from being a "legal to continue to use" SBR to an "illegal to continue to use" SBR.

It's in the realm of possibility that there may be, but if there is it would seem to be contradictory to a number of statements they've already made that don't seem to support that.

YMMV

The difference is in the fact that there's still a standard $200 tax stamp submission button on the e-Forms site, therefore it does seem to indicate that yes they do see the two differently for the purpose of applying and maybe during pending approval. It is agreed that they say after approval, changing stock from brace to stock is fine/changes nothing of the SBR "configuration", again, after it's been registered.. on the other hand.. they do note its okay to "continue to possess an unregistered SBR during the 120 day tax forbearance as long as you have proof of submission"... but again, the fact that these questions are focusing on pistol brace equipped firearms with rifled barrels under 16"..... and the obvious example of the regular $200 E-Form submission for Form 1s seem to indicate that there is a difference, at least at this time.

I have a question. If it ends up taking a year or two for final approvals, does that mean folks are stuck with a brace on their SBR's even though they have an "SBR" and have met all the requirements to properly comply with the new rule?

No difference from "Silencer jail" or "waiting on approval for finishing a SBR/SBS/AOW build"

 

[wired]

I have a question. If it ends up taking a year or two for final approvals, does that mean folks are stuck with a brace on their SBR's even though they have an "SBR" and have met all the requirements to properly comply with the new rule?

Yep

 

[Yarome]

The difference is in the fact that there's still a standard $200 tax stamp submission button on the e-Forms site, therefore it does seem to indicate that yes they do see the two differently for the purpose of applying and maybe during pending approval. It is agreed that they say after approval, changing stock from brace to stock is fine/changes nothing of the SBR "configuration", again, after it's been registered.. on the other hand.. they do note its okay to "continue to possess an unregistered SBR during the 120 day tax forbearance as long as you have proof of submission"... but again, the fact that these questions are focusing on pistol brace equipped firearms with rifled barrels under 16"..... and the obvious example of the regular $200 E-Form submission for Form 1s seem to indicate that there is a difference, at least at this time.


No difference from "Silencer jail" or "waiting on approval for finishing a SBR/SBS/AOW build"

I agree that there are specific characteristics of an SBR required to qualify for the free stamp, but I don't see anywhere saying that standard SBR rules and policies will not apply to your SBR until your stamp has been approved.

If you take it a step further... it seems ambiguous at best and would then fall under the law of lenity. Meaning... any court must then side in the favor of public interest.

I keep going back to... is it an SBR or isn't it(?) They say it is so.... it stands to reason that their rules and policies would apply, unless specifically stated that special conditions apply to a specific class of "SBR's"(?)

Maybe that specific question will be addressed in future webinars, but so far it seems to be only conjecture and trying to extrapolate meaning from other questions and answers out of context of this specific question.

What the alphabet has also clearly said seems in contrast to those assumptions, but... that happens!

 

[CamoDeafie]

I agree that there are specific characteristics of an SBR required to qualify for the free stamp, but I don't see anywhere saying that standard SBR rules and policies will not apply to your SBR until your stamp has been approved.

There is the issue of the brace vs the stock itself. I do not see anywhere in the FAQs that once one applies for the free stamp, one has to either keep the brace on the firearm or one can remove (makes it not a SBR) and swap for a stock (back to SBR).. I however do see the option for "16" barrel with brace is fine. Is not NFA item" so it seems to center on the brace vs stock once again. Yes I understand "once a SB rifle, always a SB rifle" and then flip side of that though was their previous determination and lawsuit decision that says pistol to rifle to pistol OK as long as not NFA configuration (see THOMPSON CENTER Contender suits)

If you take it a step further... it seems ambiguous at best and would then fall under the law of lenity. Meaning... any court must then side in the favor of public interest.

Specifically the criminal defendant/plaintiffs and not the prosecution. How District Courts have not struck down any of the ATF shenanigans as violating the leniency clause in the US code, I'll never quite understand

I keep going back to... is it an SBR or isn't it(?) They say it is so.... it stands to reason that their rules and policies would apply, unless specifically stated that special conditions apply to a specific class of "SBR's"(?)

Brace vs stock again. $200 tax stamp form 1 vs tax exempt form 1. They say it may be so according to their subjective criteria. Again, lawsuits.

Best I can tell, brace keeps until stamp then swap, at least until they say outright "OK to swap after apply before approval" but assuming no swap before approval because it's the brace that's key under this "rule". That they point out "remove permanently" is an option, along with destroy, register, or turn in for braces themselves... there have been talk in the past of having mere possession of a loose rifle stock(not brace) in the same vicinity as a pistol that could accept said stock would be "constructive intent"/"constructive possession " and thus be subject to criminal penalties prior to this rule... is kind of significant. They do not explicitly say "okay to swap for a stock after applying to comply"

Maybe that specific question will be addressed in future webinars, but so far it seems to be only conjecture and trying to extrapolate meaning from other questions and answers out of context of this specific question.

Indeed but best play it safe, no?

What the alphabet has also clearly said seems in contrast to those assumptions, but... that happens!

Indeed. Too much ambiguity makes nights interesting

 

[Yarome]

How District Courts have not struck down any of the ATF shenanigans as violating the leniency clause in the US code, I'll never quite understand

Indeed but best play it safe, no?

They actually did use that in the bump stock case.

Play it safe.... yeah/maybe... if you plan on coming under LE scrutiny while dinking around with your newly branded "SBR". If you don't get caught... has any crime "really" been committed?

 

[wired]

They actually did use that in the bump stock case.

Play it safe.... yeah/maybe... if you plan on coming under LE scrutiny while dinking around with your newly branded "SBR". If you don't get caught... has any crime "really" been committed?

Sort of. One district court deemed it unconstitutional but that sort of thing happens often and the ATF has not changed their tune on bumpstocks one bit. Go buy one.

As far as stocks on newly minted freebie SBR's its not "registered" until the ATF inspectors ink dries on the Form 1. When they say registered they dont mean applied for registration. They are allowing the brace to stay on until then.