Minimum barrel length, .44 Magnum?

[The Heretic]

Firstly - we are talking about a 4 inch barrel, not a 6 inch barrel and you'll find the fps is very different.
Secondly - ammo box velocity claims are often inaccurate.
Thirdly - I don't see anything I wrote refuted by anything you wrote, if anything, what I originally wrote is agreed with by what you wrote.

1) I was talking about a 4" barrel too.
2) Give me a week or so and I will have the time to chrono some loads from my 329, but Buffalo Bore ammo actually measures the velocity of their loads in several different barrel lengths:

DANGEROUS GAME HEAVY 44 MAGNUM - Mono-Metal Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

DANGEROUS GAME HEAVY 44 MAGNUM - Mono-Metal Bullets Field Proven pistol and handgun ammo. Maximum firepower bullets. Best ammunition for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly big bore. Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN Field Proven Pistol and Handgun Ammo. Maximum firepower ammunition. Best Ammo for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly Big Bore, Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

3) My point was that the .44 Mag does have significant advantages over the 10mm, regardless of barrel length. One advantage is its ability to handle heavier projectiles.

10mm 225gr:
➤ 1140 fps - Glock model 20 4.6-inch barrel
➤ 1175 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5-inch barrel
➤ 1201 fps - Para Ordnance 1911 with Nowlin 5-inch barrel

.44 Mag 265gr:
➤ 1,657 fps -- Marlin 1894, 18-inch barrel
➤ 1,431 fps -- US Arms Abilene, 7.5-inch barrel
➤ 1,421 fps -- Ruger Super Blackhawk, 5.5-inch barrel
➤ 1,372 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch barrel

 

[The Heretic]

What did Elmer Keith carry?

Keith regarded the handgun as a weapon of opportunity. He had plenty of opportunities to use his sixgun on game during his life. He was incredibly skilled with handguns. He shot at a rifle-wounded deer and hit it several times at a range of 600 yards (550 m) using his 6½ inch S&W Model 29.[4] It is currently part of the Keith collection with the factory standard 4-inch (100 mm) barrel length that he more commonly carried.

Elmer Keith - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[AMT]

Many years ago a man by the name of Lee Jurras (the founder of Super Vel) wrote an article for ".44 Mag. Bible" in the Summer of '79.

@CountryGent This article would answer your question.

He started out with a Ruger Super Blackhawk with a Douglas premium grade 10" bbl., and he reduced it by 1" increments to 2" length.

The article is about 1/2 through the .pdf titled "Barrel Length vs Velocity".

The article can be found in .pdf format on another forum that i frequent. I have it downloaded and am trying to post it here but am having troubles. Here is the link to the forum/article:

.44 Mag Bible

To download a copy of Guns – .44 Mag Bible please click :- .44 Mag Bible

www.amtguns.net

The .pdf seemed to be missing some information. So, one of the other members did some Google-Fu and found the missing info., which i have in a Word document. I cannot attach the .doc either so here is a copy/paste:



Google Fu found the remaining missing text, which you can read here:

….. I've shot lots of .44 Magnums, over 5,000 full-charge loads at varmints alone during the past year. Recoil and blast have never bothered me, even when function-firing 4-inch guns as fast as possible for over 100 rounds in just a few minutes. But, at the 3 and 2-inch lengths, the test gun began beating my hand badly; the front of my trigger finger was first blistered, then bloodied, from the inside front of the trigger guard; my index finger the same from the rear of the trigger guard; little finger smashed between gun-butt and sandbag; and the entire hand, wrist, and forearm strained and painful from the cumulative effects of recoil in general. Eventually I began flinching but fortunately only with the test gun; flinchitis didn't carry over with other guns after the tests.

To state that recoil with the 2-inch barrel was vicious is putting it mildly, to say the least. Four inches is fine, and I'm accustomed to it, but that 2-inch Ruger simply beat my hand to a pulp. This is not a criticism of either the gun or cartridge; this was simply an experiment, and certainly there is no practical use for a barrel shorter than 4 inches by any stretch of one's imagination.
Ammunition was chosen for the tests based upon general availability to the shooting public, including the new R-P "medium velocity" load which has long been needed. The Norma load was used only in the shorter barrel lengths because from past experiences it was expected to be faster there then the others; this was proven true.

One lesson learned from the tests is that none of the loads showed any great velocity gain beyond 7 inches of barrel - less than 100 fps gain from 7 to 10 inches. That's not much return for the investment in an extra-long custom barrel. Another lesson is that velocities are higher than we expected from barrels under four inches and a good bit lower at 4 inches than most .44 shooters have believed.

TEST RESULTS

BBL. LOAD VELOCITY
LENGTH AVERAGE

10" Winchester 1422
Federal 1464
Remington 1077

9" Winchester 1345
Federal 1386
Remington 1085

8" Winchester 1336
Federal 1396
Remington 1057

7" Winchester 1349
Federal 1384
Remington 990

6" Winchester 1339
Federal 1325
Remington 1000

5" Winchester 1293
Federal 1281
Remington 973
Norma 1346

4" Winchester 1206
Federal 1165
Remington 923
Norma 1346

3" Winchester 1212
Federal 1205
Remington 873
Norma 1270

2" Winchester 909
Federal 875
Remington 655
Norma 990


TEST AMMO

REMINGTON - 240 gr. Lead, Index R44MG4
WINCHESTER - 240 gr. JSP, Index 44MHSP
FEDERAL - 240 gr. JSP, Index 44A
NORMA - 240 gr. SPFN, Index 175


SPECS.

Ruger Super Blackhawk
Douglas premium grade 10" bbl., reduced by 1" increments to 2" length.
Temp. 85-92 degrees, 15% humidity.
Ohler Mod 32 Chronotach, w/Mod 61 Skyscreens. 5' screen spacing, 5' instrumental velocity screens baffled.

 

[The Heretic]

Of course such testing depends on the load. I usually look first at the Ballistics By Inch website, but they have two tables, and I believe that at least some of the top tables are calculated and not actually measured velocities. The bottom table is with actual guns.

With different loads one can expect that some loads will do better in than others in long barrels and some better than others in short barrels, depending on the type of powder used. Personally I don't feel I am giving up a lot of velocity with a 4" barrel vs. a 6" barrel, and I like the balance and weight of the 4" barrel over longer barrels. In Alaska, I carried a Dan Wesson with a vented heavy (full underlug) 6" ported barrel revolver in .44 magnum with the Barnes 300gr JSP loads that had a thicker jacket, loaded hot and meant for brown bear protection. I still have some of those loads - they were $3 per round back in the mid 80s when I was making only $20K per year as a tech.

 

[Longwalkhome]

We learn from our elders. What ever you decide realize that the bad is there too. Guy that wrote for American Hungunner said he shot big bore handguns so much his hand bones spiderweb cracked. Might want to shoot 44 specials a lot to learn the gun before you push magnums.

Personally I love the 44 special in a Colt SAA with 4.75 barrel as a woods gun. Carries well, plenty of power and shoots plenty straight at most handgun distances.

 

[American123]

1) I was talking about a 4" barrel too.
2) Give me a week or so and I will have the time to chrono some loads from my 329, but Buffalo Bore ammo actually measures the velocity of their loads in several different barrel lengths:

DANGEROUS GAME HEAVY 44 MAGNUM - Mono-Metal Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

DANGEROUS GAME HEAVY 44 MAGNUM - Mono-Metal Bullets Field Proven pistol and handgun ammo. Maximum firepower bullets. Best ammunition for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly big bore. Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN Field Proven Pistol and Handgun Ammo. Maximum firepower ammunition. Best Ammo for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly Big Bore, Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

3) My point was that the .44 Mag does have significant advantages over the 10mm, regardless of barrel length. One advantage is its ability to handle heavier projectiles.

10mm 225gr:
➤ 1140 fps - Glock model 20 4.6-inch barrel
➤ 1175 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5-inch barrel
➤ 1201 fps - Para Ordnance 1911 with Nowlin 5-inch barrel

.44 Mag 265gr:
➤ 1,657 fps -- Marlin 1894, 18-inch barrel
➤ 1,431 fps -- US Arms Abilene, 7.5-inch barrel
➤ 1,421 fps -- Ruger Super Blackhawk, 5.5-inch barrel
➤ 1,372 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch barrel

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .44 Mag Results

(statement of intent)

www.ballisticsbytheinch.com

Reference "real world guns".

I never claimed the hottest .44 mag wasn't clocking in more than the hottest 10mm. I claimed that in certain loadings, nothing is gained.

 

[titsonritz]

I have also learned to love the 45 Colt. It does everything better than a 44 mag.

Writings | linebaughsixguns

www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com

It also makes for thinner cylinder and barrel walls due to the .451 vs .429 dia projectiles, therefore in the same gun, I would think the 44 mag would be a stronger constructed firearm, albeit heavier.

 

[Longwalkhome]

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .44 Mag Results

(statement of intent)

www.ballisticsbytheinch.com

Reference "real world guns".

I never claimed the hottest .44 mag wasn't clocking in more than the hottest 10mm. I claimed that in certain loadings, nothing is gained.

Whats different? At handgun velocities it becomes bullet design that makes the real difference. Keith style bullets made the 44 magnum a great hunting gun because if you didn't hit bone to transfer power then the cutting edge of the bullet did the damage. Just my opinion and ymmv.

 

[American123]

Whats different? At handgun velocities it becomes bullet design that makes the real difference. Keith style bullets made the 44 magnum a great hunting gun because if you didn't hit bone to transfer power then the cutting edge of the bullet did the damage. Just my opinion and ymmv.

Can you clarify "what's different?"

 

[Longwalkhome]

Can you clarify "what's different?"

I don't write well but will try. A 44mag revolver allows different bullet shapes so a better bullet improves performance. Keith's bullets had speed, weight and a sharp cutting edge that is very important in hunting.

Majority of 10mms are semi autos the restrict bullet design to what feeds in the gun. Wad cutters can't be trusted so typical bullets are round nose. Without a cutting edge in handgun velocity the wounds self seal so the animal runs off before it bleeds out.

Both rounds kill but 44s do it better. Imho

 

[titsonritz]

Majority of 10mms are semi autos the restrict bullet design to what feeds in the gun. Wad cutters can't be trusted so typical bullets are round nose. Without a cutting edge in handgun velocity the wounds self seal so the animal runs off before it bleeds out.

That's why God made the S&W 610.

 

[CountryGent]

Many years ago a man by the name of Lee Jurras (the founder of Super Vel) wrote an article for ".44 Mag. Bible" in the Summer of '79.

@CountryGent This article would answer your question.

Thanks for the link. Saved a copy to read later today.

 

[Longwalkhome]

That's why God made the S&W 610.

I like 10 mms but never hunted with one. 44s have a lot of good history behind them.

 

[The Heretic]

It also makes for thinner cylinder and barrel walls due to the .451 vs .429 dia projectiles, therefore in the same gun, I would think the 44 mag would be a stronger constructed firearm, albeit heavier.

Some people load hot .45 LC using trimmed .454 brass, and I think I read about some .45 LC brass made with stronger cases.

As for the cylinder and barrel, I would have no problem shooting hot .45 LC loads in current manufacture Rugers and some other handguns.

 

[American123]

I don't write well but will try. A 44mag revolver allows different bullet shapes so a better bullet improves performance. Keith's bullets had speed, weight and a sharp cutting edge that is very important in hunting.

Majority of 10mms are semi autos the restrict bullet design to what feeds in the gun. Wad cutters can't be trusted so typical bullets are round nose. Without a cutting edge in handgun velocity the wounds self seal so the animal runs off before it bleeds out.

Both rounds kill but 44s do it better. Imho

That all may be true, but the OP originally had nothing to do with hunting, if this thread was meant to talk more about hunting with the .44 mag, then those features seem very relevant.

 

[Longwalkhome]

 

[Mike7b]

Old wives tale about 45 colt brass being weak. If a ruger only load in 45 colt can't do the job, grab a 454, if that's to weak then grab your 460 or 480 or 500 or get out you BFR. Taffin had it right about the perfect packing pistol. And before taffin, skeeter skelton also had some ideas about what the perfect packing pistol was.

 

[oremike]

Some people load hot .45 LC using trimmed .454 brass, and I think I read about some .45 LC brass made with stronger cases.

As for the cylinder and barrel, I would have no problem shooting hot .45 LC loads in current manufacture Rugers and some other handguns.

45 Colt Brass - Large Pistol - Brass Cases

 

[The Heretic]

Old wives tale about 45 colt brass being weak. If a ruger only load in 45 colt can't do the job, grab a 454, if that's to weak then grab your 460 or 480 or 500 or get out you BFR. Taffin had it right about the perfect packing pistol. And before taffin, skeeter skelton also had some ideas about what the perfect packing pistol was.

I can't find it right now, but I recall a comparison of the web area of current manufacture .45 LC vs. .454 brass, that the latter was thicker and stronger, but also recall (maybe same article) mention that "modern" .45LC brass is stronger than the brass used in the BP days (more than 50 years since it was produced?). Here is a photo of the two types with the old BP brass on the right:

 

[The Heretic]

.44 mag (left) & .45LC (right):



The .45 is a little thinner in the lower portion and the web, but in my non-expert opinion, it seems plenty strong enough - especially when supported in a stout cylinder like that in most Rugers.