All Or Nothing Paradoxes.

[arakboss]

Pics or it didn't happen!

Did it have those blue Colt grips? Man, when those first came out, I was sure I had to have one. Then, before I could locate one, they came out with a stainless version, and I like stainless pistols best. But, I didn't like the looks with the blue grips as well as the blued version. Analysis paralysis took over, and I ended up with neither, then started coveting something else.

As to the original premise of the thread, I'm a hardcore vegetable hater. The only vegetable I can stand to eat is barley and hops. Oh, and chocolate.

Original blue grips were included but previous owner changed them out for grayish grips.




I hate eating vegetables too because my carnistic beliefs don't support the exploitation of plants. Save the plants!

 

[arakboss]

As a Carnist I support this important message.

View: https://youtu.be/z0O_VYcsIk8?feature=shared

 

[CamoDeafie]

I'm sorry, but the terms "carnism/carnists" just makes me think of these.. clicky to embiggen


As to the subject of "all or nothing"
..
Sure wish more politicians and lawyers would officially recognize that the term "arms" means all weapons in the 2A and not "only some arms" or "nothing for the subjects, all for the government"

 

[JRuby]

It's not that they don't feel pain, it's that they don't experience pain as a long term trauma on their psyche. They get the initial burst, they will continue the experience if the wound gets stimulated, but by and large ongoing pain is automatically ignored by their sensory processing filter in the brain stem. And their memory retention of the experience is almost nonexistent. Koalas are probably the most extreme example for mammals, depending on the type of trauma they barely register or respond to the initial event, and seem to have no memory of anything past a few hours, if that. Their brains are quite literally completely smooth and about the size of a small walnut, which means their processing capacity for anything past basic instinctual stimulus recognition is, well, "quite limited" is an understatement. They cannot even recognize their own food in a different context, like leaves on a plate, let alone be taught to utilize a different food source like pellets. Utilizing that extremely limited processing capability for things like "trauma" and "psychological distress" is right out.

Thank you for the reply but I disagree - the ability to manage and ignore pain is common depending on the situation not just the species. One species being able to handle pain is also based on the mammals physiology. To not be able to recognize food in different forms has plagued even humans at times. I am a meat eater and my take on vegans./ vegetarians is that the day no one eats meat several species will die out. I like my meat and am fortunate to be the top of the food chain.

 

[JRuby]

Sage rats.

I imagine when you hit one with a 17hmr they don't feel much.

 

[CamoDeafie]

the day no one earts meat several species will die out. I

Indeed. If the Dodo bird was delicious, they may not have gone extinct. The extinct Aurochs were the ancestors of domestic cattle, because they were delicious. Wolves and bears didn't taste good to Europeans, particularly those in the British Isles, and so they're no longer native there. Many species died out because they didn't taste good to humans and so humans allowed their pets (cats and dogs) to exterminate native species, as well as changing the environments (clearing land for farmland, using trees for industry/construction)
Edit. Also if they weren't cute looking and easily domesticated

 

[JRuby]

Indeed. If the Dodo bird was delicious, they may not have gone extinct. The extinct Aurochs were the ancestors of domestic cattle, because they were delicious. Wolves and bears didn't taste good to Europeans, particularly those in the British Isles, and so they're no longer native there. Many species died out because they didn't taste good to humans and so humans allowed their pets (cats and dogs) to exterminate native species, as well as changing the environments (clearing land for farmland, using trees for industry/construction)
Edit. Also if they weren't cute looking and easily domesticated

Your point is valid there are a lot of reasons. Why animals go extinct and should be looked at on a case by case. I believe that day people quit eating.beef thier will be a very limited need for them. The draft horse breeds are going through this process today since few people use them for thier purpose and they are exspensive to maintain.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Your point is valid there are a lot of reasons. Why animals go extinct andvshould be looked at on a case by case. I believe that day people quit eating.beef thier will be a very limited need for them. The draft horse breeds are going through this process today since few people use them for thier purpose and they are exspensive to maintain.

On the extreme end, Asian cultures seem to think everything is a resource to use up, without regards to sustainability or long term management. See overfishing and excessive harvesting of every creature for medicine/goods

 

[lucusloc]

Thank you for the reply but I disagree - the ability to manage and ignore pain is common depending on the situation not just the species. One species being able to handle pain is also based on the mammals physiology. To not be able to recognize food in different forms has plagued even humans at times. I am a meat eater and my take on vegans./ vegetarians is that the day no one earts meat several species will die out. I like my meat and am fortunate to be the top of the food chain.

I think a human not being able to recognize something as food and a koala not being able to do the same is actually completely different. Humans have thousands of different food sources, and can further refine and process those into different forms. We can recognize most aspects of a salad whether it is on the plant, in a bowl or even processed into some freeze dried abomination. It might be difficult if we processed it into pellet form, but that is only because we process so many other non-food things into pellets too that we might rightfully be skeptical that that form factor is edible by default.

A koala has quite literally one food source. They eat the leaves of only one type of plant, which means you would think they could recognize it in pretty much any context, by vision or smell, but that is absolutely not the case. If you pluck some leaves off a branch and put them on a plate in front of them they will immediately stop recognizing them as food. The only way they recognize leaves as food is if it is still on the branch. There have been stories of koalas literally starving to death because their keepers were not aware of this cognitive limitation and feeding them from bins in their enclosure. They were surrounded by food and too stupid to recognize it or even make the desperate attempt to eat something that closely resembled food that was right in front of them.

If we apply that same level of cognitive disparity to pain processing what do you think we get. . .

 

[Xaevian]

Starvation will make cannibals of most anyone.

 

[Xaevian]

 

[DB is Here]

Starvation will make cannibals of most anyone.

You said the quiet part out loud...Is that you BBQ?

 

[Certaindeaf]

Starvation will make cannibals of most anyone.

This is why vegetarians eat vegetables. Get it? lulz.

 

[JRuby]

I think a human not being able to recognize something as food and a koala not being able to do the same is actually completely different. Humans have thousands of different food sources, and can further refine and process those into different forms. We can recognize most aspects of a salad whether it is on the plant, in a bowl or even processed into some freeze dried abomination. It might be difficult if we processed it into pellet form, but that is only because we process so many other non-food things into pellets too that we might rightfully be skeptical that that form factor is edible by default.

A koala has quite literally one food source. They eat the leaves of only one type of plant, which means you would think they could recognize it in pretty much any context, by vision or smell, but that is absolutely not the case. If you pluck some leaves off a branch and put them on a plate in front of them they will immediately stop recognizing them as food. The only way they recognize leaves as food is if it is still on the branch. There have been stories of koalas literally starving to death because their keepers were not aware of this cognitive limitation and feeding them from bins in their enclosure. They were surrounded by food and too stupid to recognize it or even make the desperate attempt to eat something that closely resembled food that was right in front of them.

If we apply that same level of cognitive disparity to pain processing what do you think we get. . .

It has been said of some humans that if you put them in a cow pasture surrounded by a corn field they would die of starvation. Though a slight joke there is a grain of truth. Adaptabilittvl of a species is the greatest defense against extinction. I know little of Koalas but they are not the only species to have only one source of food. Monarch catrrpillars are another. How does having one food source mean that they don't feel pain. To me they're distinct and separate characteristics of an animal.

 

[RVTECH]

On rare occasions I will even by something other than a Hi-Point.

Other than a Hi Point?

How often do you buy Hi Points and how many do you own?

 

[arakboss]

Other than a Hi Point?

How often do you buy Hi Points and how many do you own?

3 carbines (9mm, 40 and 45), 2 9mm pistols and I just picked up a 45 pistol.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I'm going to quit the internet now.

 

[RVTECH]

Old school vegan/Earthmuffin statement:

'If you love animals don't eat them'

 

[lucusloc]

It has been said of some humans that if you put them in a cow pasture surrounded by a corn field they would die of starvation. Though a slight joke there is a grain of truth. Adaptabilittvl of a species is the greatest defense against extinction. I know little of Koalas but they are not the only species to have only one source of food. Monarch catrrpillars are another. How does having one food source mean that they don't feel pain. To me they're distinct and separate characteristics of an animal.

Again, I never said they do not feel pain. I said they do not feel pain the same way a human does. I was relating their ability to cognitively process food sources as a much more direct example of their extremely limited processing power as a way emphasize the disparity between them and humans.

Human; watches food get picked, processed, cooked and put into bowl: still recognized as food. Koala; watches food get picked and put on the ground in font of them in the exact same form: not recognized as food.

The same disparity in pain processing exists, but it is much harder to visualize. We get stuck by a thorn and we have the initial pain, the following soreness, the constant mental stimulus that we often have to actively ignore, the memory of the entire event, an aversion to doing that again and possibly even some level of mental trauma that causes similar situations to become profoundly uncomfortable in hard to describe ways.

We see a koala get stuck by a thorn and offload this entire experience onto them when in reality it is more like "initial pain, move away from stimulus, confirm stimulus is no longer ongoing, base level stimulus processing ignores ongoing damage reports from affected area unless wound is being actively stimulated." Hell, they are dumb enough they might stick a different part of their body on the same thorn, and continue doing so until they receive a strong enough compound stimulus to move a good distance away from the problem. And there is no guarantee that they will not just move back over there at some future point and stick themselves again because they are incapable of recognizing the pattern.

The legal protections that are in place for these animals basically state they cannot be removed from their trees at all because they are incapable of properly coping with any other kind of environment, and that includes not being able to stop constantly hurting themselves on objects they do not recognize. Barbed wire seems to be a particularly problematic issue for them, because if it provides a convenient avenue from one place they want to be to another they will constantly use it, harming themselves every time they make the trip. Their ability to process pain is about as rudimentary as it gets for a mammal, with zero ability to process/experience it past the most basic of stimulus.

 

[JRuby]

That is the paradox I love dogs and cats and consider them family. In October and I am out hunting I would put a round into a nice buck. I guess that means different lives have different values.