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Yup. It would verify actual physical purchases recorded in their financials. It's "reasonable", but if the facts are true... they weren't on the warrant so they had no legal authority to seize those records. It might have been an oversight, but if they've been investigating the FFL for more than 2 years, they undoubtedly knew they wanted those records and should have had them on the warrant.

Just guessing, but whatever judge signed off on the warrant may not have allowed it. If their probable cause was financial misconduct I can see where a judge might not want to sign off on 4473's... being out of the scope of the investigation since those records don't actually contain any financial information.

That doesn't mean they couldn't still push for them and maybe employ some intimidation tactics... which it appears they did... and it worked.
Depends on the nature of the investigation. If the FFL is hiding gun sales, or selling under the table (Im not suggesting this was actually happening).


Also, I missed the part where we know what was on the warrant? How does that work? Im assuming a warrent means whatever evidence they can find. Note, I took the kids fishing today and not going back to read 5 pages at the moment cause im doing other stuff too.
 
The 4473 provides firearms info but could be multiple firearms for one transaction; and the sales receipt might only say "firearm 1 $xxxx" , "firearm 2 $xxxx" and so on. Again. Depending on the State; if it's private transfer, then sales receipt only should show "private transfer fee" and "background check fee"

But then again, since it happened in Montana, and theres no Federal bill/law I know of that practically bans private face to face transfers without FFL involvement/Universal BG Check..
this is true but it depends on the size of the discrepancy. eg: If they sell 1000 guns but only have 100 4473s then there's an issue kinda thing.

IDK Montanas private sales law but my guess is that doesn't affect the outcome either way.
 
Also, I missed the part where we know what was on the warrant? How does that work? Im assuming a warrent means whatever evidence they can find. Note, I took the kids fishing today and not going back to read 5 pages at the moment cause im doing other stuff too.
We don't. Only that it was reported that 4473's were not listed on the warrant. A warrant is not a blank check to go on a fishing expedition. The scope of a warrant must be clearly defined.
 
Reported by the Gateway Pundit?
You're really stuck on that hu?? 🤣

Reported by numerous outlets in the FFL owners own words and a copy of the warrant supplied to the congressman that he used to draft a letter to the alphabets with specific questions demanding answers to those very points.

What's interesting.... for you... one outlet says one thing. Another internet source says 'they're lying'... so you believe the second internet source without a doubt... just because they said so? What about the 3rd source that claims the 2nd source are the liars? We'll flip flop again??

The aggregate information seems to indicate there was some truth to it, and I highly doubt a congressman would be demanding answers from the alphabets if there is absolutely no founding to base those questions on.
 
You're really stuck on that hu?? 🤣

Reported by numerous outlets in the FFL owners own words and a copy of the warrant supplied to the congressman that he used to draft a letter to the alphabets with specific questions demanding answers to those very points.

What's interesting.... for you... one outlet says one thing. Another internet source says 'they're lying'... so you believe the second internet source without a doubt... just because they said so? What about the 3rd source that claims the 2nd source are the liars? We'll flip flop again??

The aggregate information seems to indicate there was some truth to it, and I highly doubt a congressman would be demanding answers from the alphabets if there is absolutely no founding to base those questions on.
lol, no. the Gateway Pundit really is a fake news site. That you can bank on.

and for my vetting process no I dont blindly believe any second source just because they say so. I fact check them too.
All I judge from is evidence. The Gateway Pundit article has provided no evidence for their 4473 claims. The burden of proof is on them not the reader. I dont think many people understand that concept...
 
Never mind . . . enjoying the tequila too much to go down that rabbit hole
Agreed. A lot of outlets are reporting nearly the same storyline. The baseline theory would then be that the FFL, the sitting congressman, individuals who were supposedly interviewed that witnessed the raid and alphabet agencies being reported as confirming there is an ongoing investigation are all lying in an effort to make the alphabets look bad.

Talk about tin hat conspiracy theories!! :s0140:
 
lol, no. the Gateway Pundit really is a fake news site. That you can bank on.

and for my vetting process no I dont blindly believe any second source just because they say so. I fact check them too.
All I judge from is evidence. The Gateway Pundit article has provided no evidence for their 4473 claims. The burden of proof is on them not the reader. I dont think many people understand that concept...
IOW... all news is bogus unless verifiable documentation is provided to the average Joe citizen.
First hand accounts of those involved are meaningless.... 👍

The pundit may be a rag... maybe it's all a hoax... maybe comments regarding the case from the alphabets offices are fictitious... and maybe even the congressman's "letter" is just photoshopped. It could happen.
 
Agreed. A lot of outlets are reporting REPEATING nearly the same storyline. The baseline theory would then be that the FFL, the sitting congressman, individuals who were supposedly interviewed that witnessed the raid and alphabet agencies being reported as confirming there is an ongoing investigation are all lying in an effort to make the alphabets look bad.

Talk about tin hat conspiracy theories!! :s0140:
FIFY :) You really think that all the outlets carrying this story sent reporters there to investigate and report on the story? That's not reporting, that's filling space so the ads don't bump into each other

"Lying" requires the individual know the truth and than chose to act or say things in a way contrary to the truth I doubt any of them folks you listed know "the truth" as in the objective truth and are instead relying on what they think they know, that being the subjective truth, so they would NOT be lying but may be running their mouths off before all facts are in
 
You really believe that?
That a democratic or republican politician never grandstands for their political base or for the media.
That's not what I said. Do they grand stand? Yes. Bend the facts to fit an agenda? Certainly.

Do they blow all their political capital by fabricating cases out of thin air? It sure wouldn't be in their best interest to do that and I think most would agree that politicians first priority is always self serving.
 
IOW... all news is bogus unless verifiable documentation is provided to the average Joe citizen.
First hand accounts of those involved are meaningless.... 👍

The pundit may be a rag... maybe it's all a hoax... maybe comments regarding the case from the alphabets offices are fictitious... and maybe even the congressman's "letter" is just photoshopped. It could happen.
I guess everyone does it different and not everything is going to be perfectly transparent. But I read at least 3 separate articles on any given subject. In this case the only thing thats consistent is this was an IRS raid.

As for the concressman, his letter has nothing to do with the story or what happened. He might as well be debating his opinion in this very thread, his letter proves nothing.
 
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FIFY :) You really think that all the outlets carrying this story sent reporters there to investigate and report on the story? That's not reporting, that's filling space so the ads don't bump into each other

"Lying" requires the individual know the truth and than chose to act or say things in a way contrary to the truth I doubt any of them folks you listed know "the truth" as in the objective truth and are instead relying on what they think they know, that being the subjective truth, so they would NOT be lying but may be running their mouths off before all facts are in
"Reporting", "repeating"... little difference... and, no. I never even insinuated that each sent reporters on scene to independently investigate. Putting words in my mouth to suggest that's what I was saying is weak.

I do agree that everyone has their side of the story. I also believe that does not invalidate every single element of truth.... or provide anyone with the certainty to proclaim, "they're lying!". 🤣

At this point, there is no more factual evidence that one party or the other is actually lying than there is that they are telling the truth... now "is" there(?) Let's get real.;)
 
Alright. Media lies. That is a fact. They aren't held accountable for publishing fiction.... thanks to the 94 telecom act that basically allowed newscorps /media companies to be "entertainment " and not "news" :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

What do we know? Literally nothing more than the IRS raided a FFL that may have been under surveillance for over 2 years and the FFL in question allegedly called a local ATF official to ask if he should give the IRS agents the 4473s that were asked for even if the warrant doesn't list 4473s as documentation to be taken,and supposedly the ATF rep told him yea go ahead in a return call?
 
a claim without evidence is not a fact until otherwise proven. There is plenty of evidence the Gateway Pundit lies...
I just get a kick out of it. [paraphrasing] "They didn't provide irrefutable proof that they are telling the truth... so that's irrefutable proof that they are lying."

:s0140:


Tha'ts it for me. I'm out on that line of discussion.
 

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