Zero Percent - 0% receiver?

[RX-79G]

The way the CT law is phrased, "majority finished" or something like that, suggests that the replacement for 80% will be 50%. At 50% the work will be too much of a pain for most hobbyists.

But really, banning the pieces or banning the practice are pretty much the same - except the pieces are easier to control.

The main problem being a there is no way to grandfather older ghost guns because they have the exact same markings as brand new ones. So if people can buy 80% receivers without controls because it isn't an ATF item, then they can make them without any ability to prevent new ones.

 

[msgriff]

Seems like someone should come up with a firearms design that has a very simple receiver - like the square stock that an AR-18 is made from. Then going from practically raw material to finished receiver wouldn't take really complex milling steps or 3d printing - just cutting and drilling.

Not an AR, but this is a CETME 80% receiver:

To build this:

 

[Yarome]

The way the CT law is phrased, "majority finished" or something like that, suggests that the replacement for 80% will be 50%. At 50% the work will be too

CT law has no bearing on the ATF rules that apply to all states though. In affect, anything intended to be finished, made, modified or assembled with the intent to fire a projectile by means of an explosion. They thought ahead to include any % of "kit" variation... be it 80%, 79%, 50% or lower. Leaving 0% as the remaining option... if your intent is to avoid government registration of your firearm.

 

[RX-79G]

Not an AR, but this is a CETME 80% receiver:
View attachment 1201259
To build this:
View attachment 1201260

Folding and welding Cetme/HK receivers is not easy - and the stamping itself is complex.

 

[RX-79G]

CT law has no bearing on the ATF rules that apply to all states though. In affect, anything intended to be finished, made, modified or assembled with the intent to fire a projectile by means of an explosion. They thought ahead to include any % of "kit" variation... be it 80%, 79%, 50% or lower. Leaving 0% as the remaining option... if your intent is to avoid government registration of your firearm.

There is no ATF rule on 80% receivers. There are either receivers or not. 80% is what the industry calls "less than what the ATF thinks is a receiver".

So I'm just speaking of what we might see for state laws in the future. There is now way of legally defining a 10% receiver, and the law wouldn't stand up if it went to court. That's what happens with poorly written laws - the courts destroy them because they aren't prosecutable.

 

[Koda]

The main problem being a there is no way to grandfather older ghost guns because they have the exact same markings as brand new ones. So if people can buy 80% receivers without controls because it isn't an ATF item, then they can make them without any ability to prevent new ones.

I often wonder about this because isnt it case law (or something...) that what was once legal stays legal once a new law is passed, grandfathering it? I agree there is no way (I can think of) to grandfather existing ghost guns but they can prohibit the sales of 80% kits and require serialization of existing grandfathers ghost guns.

 

[Yarome]

There is no ATF rule on 80% receivers. There are either receivers or not. 80% is what the industry calls "less than what the ATF thinks is a receiver".

So I'm just speaking of what we might see for state laws in the future. There is now way of legally defining a 10% receiver, and the law wouldn't stand up if it went to court. That's what happens with poorly written laws - the courts destroy them because they aren't prosecutable.

Sorry. I guess I failed to see the point you were trying to make since the ATF rule is nationwide and inclusive without any regard to what one state or other's % specfic law might be... that becomes "moot" in relation to a federal agency rule.

I guess it "could" matter if there was a question of either/both Federal or State prosecution if found in possession? Even though you wouldn't be able to purchase any % kit in any state that wasn't serialized by the mfg?

 

[Yarome]

....they can prohibit the sales of 80% kits and require serialization of existing grandfathers ghost guns.

Right. Seperate animals though. Prohibiting any new sale/purchase of any kit that is not serialized by the mfg. and now requiring a BGC. Another, requiring the serialization/registration if you sell or otherwise transfer ownership of a previously unserialized firearm, and yet another to require serialization/registration of any previously unserialized firearm in your possession.

 

[RX-79G]

I often wonder about this because isnt it case law (or something...) that what was once legal stays legal once a new law is passed, grandfathering it?

No. If they ban opium, that's it. But the "taking" prohibition makes it painful to take away items of real market value, so grandfathering is a way of avoiding that mess.

Sorry. I guess I failed to see the point you were trying to make since the ATF rule is nationwide and inclusive without any regard to what one state or other's % specfic law might be... that becomes "moot" in relation to a federal agency rule.

I guess it "could" matter if there was a question of either/both Federal or State prosecution if found in possession? Even though you wouldn't be able to purchase any % kit in any state that wasn't serialized by the mfg?

There really isn't an ATF rule. The ATF site says this. When someone wants to sell something that might be mistaken for a receiver they get a ruling on that item, and either it is or it isn't. If it isn't they sell it as "not a receiver".

Without a federal law, you're just going to have state laws, and that was what I was talking about.

 

[Zoolander]

Folding and welding Cetme/HK receivers is not easy - and the stamping itself is complex.

Yea.... you learn the extent of your welding and smithing skills real quick with those receivers.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Those are for experienced machinists who also have equally expensive CAD software to design their own inventions.
Ghostgunner comes with the nc codes. Just put the block in and push go.

Machinist by training. We used only Windows Notepad to type the actual G and M codes in ourselves. It was up to us to know precisely which code to use, and to manually put in the values for tool zero, absolute zero, tool diameters and so forth. MasterCamX+ made things a little easier but still needed certain inputs. Solidworks 3d and later did some good, provided you had accurate blueprints. AutoCad and its derivatives are the industry standards anyhow. I still have my copy of the textbook "blueprint reading for the machine trades", and a few pages of the most basic G and M codes somewhere.

 

[Yarome]

There really isn't an ATF rule.

If you say so, but I think the ATF would disagree with you, and is scheduled to go into effect in August. From the ATF website, a portion of the summary of final rule 2021R-05F states:

"Definition of a "frame or receiver" includes a partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver that has reached a stage in manufacture where it may quickly and easily ("readily") be made to function as a "frame or receiver" and expressly excludes a block of metal, liquid polymers and other raw materials or a frame or receiver that has been destroyed."

 

[RX-79G]

If you say so, but I think the ATF would disagree with you, and is scheduled to go into effect in August. From the ATF website, a portion of the summary of final rule 2021R-05F states:

"Definition of a "frame or receiver" includes a partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver that has reached a stage in manufacture where it may quickly and easily ("readily") be made to function as a "frame or receiver" and expressly excludes a block of metal, liquid polymers and other raw materials or a frame or receiver that has been destroyed."

Sure. That's one way they essentially define an 81-99% receiver. What they don't define are receivers that haven't gone beyond 80%.

 

[Yarome]

Sure. That's one way they essentially define an 81-99% receiver. What they don't define are receivers that haven't gone beyond 80%.

I think if you read the full rule (vs. their summary) you would find the new definition does not define percentages... and is in no way limited to 80%+. Any component that is reasonably and "easily" intended to produce a working lower/receiver is fair game.

 

[billdeserthills]

Years ago I came across a pdf print of an 0% AR15 lower made from small chunks of aluminum blocks then it all bolted together. Ugly AF but the individual blocks could all be made with hand tools, and a regulat upper snapped right on....

Kinda reminds me of this

Noziroh Systems, LLC – Evolution Golf Cart Upgrades

nozirohsystems.com

 

[Koda]

Kinda reminds me of this

Noziroh Systems, LLC – Evolution Golf Cart Upgrades

nozirohsystems.com

Like that but dang they did a nice job with that kit....

 

[RX-79G]

I think if you read the full rule (vs. their summary) you would find the new definition does not define percentages... and is in no way limited to 80%+. Any component that is reasonably and "easily" intended to produce a working lower/receiver is fair game.

Sure. And if it falls just short of "easily", it isn't and they have nothing more to say about it. The ATF does not regulate blocks of metal that can't "easily" be turned into receivers by doing around 20% more of the necessary machine or assembly work. Until it hits that level of "easily", it isn't something they have a legal opinion about or an interest in regulating.

I'm not trying to suggest what 20% looks like, I'm saying that 80% is just a term of art for how the ATF determines what "easily" looks like versus something that takes much more work. All of which would be more straightforward if it weren't for the fact that there is more than one way to make a receiver besides milling it out of a forging.

 

[RX-79G]

Kinda reminds me of this

Noziroh Systems, LLC – Evolution Golf Cart Upgrades

nozirohsystems.com

I am willing to bet this won't go through. They even say that they did all the hard work so the final assembly should take little time.

I've always wondered why not one was making something like this out of stacked plates and standoffs, though.

 

[RicInOR]

Does anyone know why the chamber is not the serialized component?

Summary of Final Rule 2021R-05F | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms On April 11, 2022, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule, Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms, amending ATF’s regulations by removing and replacing the regulatory definitions of “firearm frame or...

www.atf.gov

If there was just one thing that was needed to make a 'firearm' a chamber seems like the one you can't really skip.
I get that you might use a couple of bricks to shoot a shotgun shell. (possibly earning a Darwin Award )


Just wondering.

 

[CamoDeafie]

For the machinists, if one has the shop space and phase converter (240v 3 phase); this might be good and not just for 0% blocks but also for pretty much anything that can be milled. Car/truck parts, drone parts, fixtures, model craft parts, dies, et cetera.

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