"Your rights have been suspended"

[Minisocks]

So, someone slipped me a bunch of faulty Bill's of rights over the years. That explains that. The Constitution does not guarantee me the right to keep and bear arms, it guarantees government the right.

He has a right to ask. Asking someone to temporarily surrender their piece while an officer runs your plates is not an infringement on your rights. He's not taking it away from you permanently, he's asking you to surrender it voluntarily so he doesn't have to cuff you and put you in the back of his cruiser which he also has a right to do. This, incidentally, happened to my brother's girlfriend when they were stopped. She got out of the car to have a smoke while my brother was doing a field sobriety test (he was stone sober, he was DD for the night and he and his GF walked out of a bar. The cop followed them and pulled him over when he cut a corner too sharply). The cop asked her to get back in the car and she, I guess, took too long, so he cuffed her and put her in the back of his cruiser till the stop was over. When he returned my brother's ID he let her out, scolded her, and let them go.

As as that was thinking that this tiny girl was any threat, it is procedure to ensure one's safety so he had to put her somewhere where she wasn't a possible threat.

I've been lied to!

But seriously, the laws that officers are sworn to uphold begin with the Constitution, and if they defraud me of my rights they are defacto agents of some government other than the government the founders wanted for us. If police love the law they should eschew any anti-constitutional bent in their training, or go to China or Cuba where the State is the power.

Did you complain this much when protestors were put in freedom of speech cages too?

Also, if you believe that the police have higher moral character than the average citizen you need to study the matter a bit.

Agreed. Many cops are badly trained, bullies and this behavior is a systemic problem that is inculcated even to new cops. Again, not a cop-apologist and I am very familiar with the studies on police behavior, but I can understand why they would need to take precautions.

You are no safer having him standing there armed than if it were the other way around, and there are plenty of videos of bad officers shooting or beating unarmed citizens. Think about that next time you get stopped, you may have drawn the loose cannon.

This point is moot, if you are confronted by a "loose cannon" are you going to shoot him with your CCW?

 

[Partsproduction]

I'd like to see any of you actually refuse an officer's request to hold on to your weapon during a stop.

Which doesn't make it any more right than for the 2nd grader giving his lunch money to the group of 4th grade bullies. Your point?

 

[Partsproduction]

do you only get worked up when it involves guns?

Why does it matter what rights I choose to protect? They are your rights too.

He has a right to ask. Asking someone to temporarily surrender their piece while an officer runs your plates is not an infringement on your rights. He's not taking it away from you permanently, he's asking you to surrender it voluntarily so he doesn't have to cuff you and put you in the back of his cruiser which he also has a right to do.

Since there is no law that requires me to tell him I'm armed he would need a warrant to search me. And I ain't telling since it's none of his business

This point is moot, if you are confronted by a "loose cannon" are you going to shoot him with your CCW?

My point is spot on. There has to be some legitimate reason why you feel the policeman is in danger when I'm armed, what's the basis? My point was that the basis can not be that he is either more stable or moral than I am and therefor I'm dangerous to him.

What basis?

I also submit that infringement is the same whether it takes two minutes of a lifetime to infringe, if I take the police hostage, tie him up and drive him ten feet I've just committed kidnapping. There is no time limit on unconstitutional behavior.

I might also question why you feel there is something in the Constitution that says police have a right to ignore it?

 

[The B]

I'd like to see any of you actually refuse an officer's request to hold on to your weapon during a stop.

i've been stopped many, many times in my life, often when i did something to call attention to myself, and sometimes even when i was doing nothing but cruising down the road minding my own. i've never been asked to hand over a firearm, and i've always been packing relatively serious heat- i've always carried at least a carbine and a pistol. sometimes it makes the younger guys obviously nervous- but the older officers rarely bat an eyelash. i've also always told the officer i was, if asked, and what i had. he carries his pistol on his hip for all to see, and his rifle or shotgun is racked up in his cruiser for all to see- i have no problem giving him the same courtesy of knowing what i'm packing. but i'll no more allow him to finger mine than he'll allow me to finger his. it'd be damn rude to ask- for either of us.

for the record, if i were ever asked/told to hand over a gun, you can be damn sure i would not simply comply. i would ask why, and if i didn't get a reasonable answer (there isn't one), chances are things would get ugly. it wouldn't be my fault. wouldn't necessarily be the officer's fault either, if he's acting on bad information or some other unfortunate situation, but sometimes bad things just happen. fortunately they're extremely rare. i'm not too worried about it.

oregon cops do not ask for your gun. they know they're not entitled to, and why would they want to anyway? having an extra, unholstered gun in your possession doesn't do anything but limit your dexterity and attention span. if i were to get nasty with you, you'd now have a loose weapon to maintain while trying to fight me. screw that- a smart cop would rather you just sit there.

 

[deadeye]

So why would you tell the officer you have a CCW? When they run the license it will come up that you have a permit. You do not have to give them your permit when giving license and registration. When they run the license their done with the traffic stop and have no need to temporarily disarm you as they are done with the original purpose of the stop.

Maybe this is different in other counties but in my area it is not required to disclose that you have a permit. I have never given it with my license and have upset a couple of city cops in the past but it is not required so they cant do anything about it.

 

[Minisocks]

Why does it matter what rights I choose to protect? They are your rights too.

Because they're all important. Infringe on one, you risk infringement on all. When "stupid hippies" get put in "freedom cages" get mad too.

Since there is no law that requires me to tell him I'm armed he would need a warrant to search me. And I ain't telling since it's none of his business

Exactly. You don't have to tell him. The person cited in the article chose to tell the cop. The cop then chose to ask him to voluntarily surrender it. See what I'm getting at?

If you don't want to tell the cop you have a gun, you legally don't have to. Problem solved.

what's the basis?

<broken link removed> . <broken link removed> .

Between 1999 and 2008, 538 officers were feloniously killed. 101 (19%) of them during traffic stops. That is the third highest behind arrest situation (122) and ambush (106). Of the 538 killed, 354 were killed with handguns.

There's your basis. Because cops don't have telepathy, they can't assess your intent.

I also submit that infringement is the same whether it takes two minutes of a lifetime to infringe, if I take the police hostage, tie him up and drive him ten feet I've just committed kidnapping. There is no time limit on unconstitutional behavior.

I submit that a reasonable precaution to ensure the protection of another's life is more important than you not having your gun for 15 minutes.

I might also question why you feel there is something in the Constitution that says police have a right to ignore it?

Because the definition of "infringed" is understood to mean that no laws shall be passed that prevents your ownership and to some extent, right to carry arms. A cop, by asking you to voluntarily surrender your piece, is not passing a law, he is asking you to voluntarily comply. There is no infringement.

 

[dontreadonme]

A couple of years ago I got pulled over for not coming to a complete stop before going thru a stop sign. My fault. Officer asked for my license and registration. I handed him those along with my CHL. He asked if I was carrying a gun. I said "Yes. What would you like me to do?". The gun was in a fanny pack so I just handed him the whole fanny pack. He went back to his patrol car, checked my record, handed me my citation, handed me back my fanny pack with pistol inside, and thanked me for telling him I was armed. Never unloaded my pistol or made any comments other than "Have a nice day and drive safe.". No big deal.

I am not sure that I would offer voluntarily that I have a CPL (in WA that's what they're called). I'm sure that as he checked my license back at his cruiser this info comes up ... assuming that the DOL and the CPL database are linked ...

Would you hand the officer both your license and your CHL/CPL? ...

:huh:

 

[Redcap]

I submit that a reasonable precaution to ensure the protection of another's life is more important than you not having your gun for 15 minutes.

So...someone else's life is more important than my own? Is that what you are trying to say? That a cop somehow mysteriously has more right to be armed than I do?

 

[Bark]

I have my chl, was pulled over a month ago for expired tags, was never asked if I was armed, given a ticket and sent on my way. Thats the way it should be, and was happy thats how it happened. If you have a license to carry you should not have to disarm when pulled over for a traffic stop.....even though I understand how the officers must feel, just because you have a chl does not mean your not dangerous,deranged, or drugged out.

 

[The B]

<broken link removed> . <broken link removed> .

Between 1999 and 2008, 538 officers were feloniously killed. 101 (19%) of them during traffic stops. That is the third highest behind arrest situation (122) and ambush (106). Of the 538 killed, 354 were killed with handguns.

There's your basis. Because cops don't have telepathy, they can't assess your intent.

ok... so going on 675,000 cops in this country, very conservatively estimating an average of 5 traffic stops PER WEEK per officer (since many of these LEOs don't work traffic or have admin positions), i've come to an estimated 175,500,000 traffic stops for any given year out of this time span... times 9 years comes to 1,579,500,000 traffic stops... yes, over one and a half billion traffic stops in 9 years, 538 cops were killed....

so your odds of being killed during a traffic stop as a cop are about 1 in 3,000,000.... yes, three million.

and i'm gonna guess my estimate of 5 traffic stops per week per cop is probably exponentially low.

hmm...

I submit that a reasonable precaution to ensure the protection of another's life is more important than you not having your gun for 15 minutes.

why do you ignore the fact that a voluntary disarming does not improve officer safety at all?

Because the definition of "infringed" is understood to mean that no laws shall be passed that prevents your ownership and to some extent, right to carry arms. A cop, by asking you to voluntarily surrender your piece, is not passing a law, he is asking you to voluntarily comply. There is no infringement.

not even gonna bother.

 

[Cougfan2]

I am not sure that I would offer voluntarily that I have a CPL (in WA that's what they're called). I'm sure that as he checked my license back at his cruiser this info comes up ... assuming that the DOL and the CPL database are linked ...

Would you hand the officer both your license and your CHL/CPL? ...

:huh:

I do it simply because I know they will have the info anyway when they run my plate and why make them more nervous than they have to be? Next to a domestic dispute call, traffic stops are the most dangerous situations LEO's run up against.

All of you that are thumping your chests and wrapping yourselves in the flag and saying "By golly I will resist if they violate my rights" will end up in handcuffs in the back of a cruiser for no good reason other than the fact you were being a jerk. Let me know how that works our for Y'all.

 

[The B]

All of you that are thumping your chests and wrapping yourselves in the flag and saying "By golly I will resist if they violate my rights" will end up in handcuffs in the back of a cruiser for no good reason other than the fact you were being a jerk. Let me know how that works our for Y'all.

either that or it's taking a freaken stand for something. i know that's not really something Americans do anymore, but i'm old-fashioned like that.

 

[Cougfan2]

either that or it's taking a freaken stand for something. i know that's not really something Americans do anymore, but i'm old-fashioned like that.

You can be intelligent about how you take a stand, or be an ideologue. The choice is yours. And BTW, your insinuating that I'm not an American by taking a cheap shot at me and not agreeing with you tells me a lot about you.

Putting you on my ignore list.

 

[Just Jim]

My apologies I didn't realize you were still dating..........

Obviouse he likes the geriactric set.

jj

 

[The B]

You can be intelligent about how you take a stand, or be an ideologue. The choice is yours. And BTW, your insinuating that I'm not an American by taking a cheap shot at me and not agreeing with you tells me a lot about you.

Putting you on my ignore list.

how can you possibly take a general, society-wide criticism as an insult directed specifically at you?

Edit

 

[Just Jim]

And now a few words from our sponser.....

jj

 

[raftman]

Does your CHL really show up when they run your license plate? I've certainly heard of that being the case, both here and in other states. But in the time I've had my CHL, I've been pulled over twice (let off with a warning both times), and in neither instance did the LEO give any indication that he was aware of my having a CHL (and thus a handgun). It simply never came up.

 

[U201491]

Does your CHL really show up when they run your license plate? I've certainly heard of that being the case, both here and in other states. But in the time I've had my CHL, I've been pulled over twice (let off with a warning both times), and in neither instance did the LEO give any indication that he was aware of my having a CHL (and thus a handgun). It simply never came up.

Yes in Oregon it definitly does. Most will never say a word, as they know at that point you have undergone a thorough background check and most likely not one of the BA;s. Most officers are decent about it. It is usually towns like Portland or Eugene that you can have the wyatt earps, but most are not going to cause you any greif. There are exceptions everywhere, but not the majority.

 

[rhtwist]

I watched most of the video and though it could have been put better, the Mayor was stating the facts IMO. The driver asking intelligent questions like "well the police officer had a firearm" showed that he was not in the conversation. Bad example and lowers my belief in that organization. Just my opinion.
rhtwist

 

[Cougfan2]

how can you possibly take a general, society-wide criticism as an insult directed specifically at you?

ignore me, you little girl. (so there's no confusion, THAT'S an insult directed at you)

Oooo, tough guy. I'm shakin' in my boots.