cz 52 and tt33 both 7.62x25 for me cheap to practice with and reliable cheap to purchase , powerful 7.62x25 fmj will penetrate 54" into clay and wolf hollow points will penetrate 7" to 8" into water soaked phone books ripping and tearing all the way ! i have seen peoples targets at 100 yd,s 8" to 12" groups end of story as far as im concerned !