Your 2nd Amendment Cop Buddy Will Take Your Guns

[Blitzkrieg]

One more thing.. cops, all cops, local, state, federal.. are civilians

 

[GOG]

I believe that things started changing when "Peace Officer" morphed into "Law Enforcement Officer". There's a different mindset that accompanies the title.

On a personal note, most of them that I've met have been pretty good folks.

 

[nwhpfan]

One more thing.. cops, all cops, local, state, federal.. are civilians

Don't blame the internet, blame the dictionary,

Civilian - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[aslinged]

Actually, if you have even most elementary understanding of reality you can see the Dmancornell consistently lays waste to the statist argument.

dmancornell,
If you are trying to convince people on this forum that libertarianism or anarcho-capitalism is a better system than statism you are doing a terrible job. You come across as extremely contentious.

 

[aslinged]

And as evidence (that's what we reality folks like to use) of my claim above, I submit this exchange, excerpted below. Total domination and polish. Do any of you arguing with him even understand what he means by 'small l liberal?' Nope. Jefferson, google him, small l liberal.


Knumbnuts: He's actually an uber-liberal because he wants all the benefits of this country without any of the effort to support it. Dman is actually the Stuart Smalley of the forum: he is smarter, he deserves all the freedom, should be subject to none of the rules, and doggone it he is good enough ... because he saw himself in a mirror.

Dman:Small-l liberal? Guilty as charged. Not sure what you mean by no effort though, I work 4 months a year to feed your beloved Moloch. LOL @ "deserves freedom", because humans aren't born free, the government gives them freedom, amirite? So much fail with your sophomoric statism.

Knumbnuts:Fine. Put your money where your mouth is and quite paying taxes or obeying traffic laws or whatever else you find as an encumberance on your freedom. You are espousing the concept of the Freeman. Good luck to you.

Dman:I would, but your precious state would imprison or murder me. Screw logic and reason, might makes right!

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Don't blame the internet, blame the dictionary,

Civilian - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Only active military are non civilians, I don't care what that link states. Almost everyone in the know agrees


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...te-of-the-day-cops-are-civilians-too-edition/

 

[nwhpfan]

Only active military are non civilians, I don't care what that link states. Almost everyone in the know agrees


Quote of the Day: Cops Are Civilians Too Edition | The Truth About GunsThe Truth About Guns

Well, these people must not be in the know. I think they've been pwn'd.

Civilian | Define Civilian at Dictionary.com

civilian - definition of civilian by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


civilian - Dictionary definition and pronunciation - Yahoo! Education

Civilian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Well, these people must not be in the know. I think they've been pwn'd.

Civilian | Define Civilian at Dictionary.com

civilian - definition of civilian by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


civilian - Dictionary definition and pronunciation - Yahoo! Education

Civilian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seriously wikipedia and yahoo as source?

We simply will have to disagree. Only military are non civilians

 

[MountainBear]

And why are we arguing who are civilians and who aren't? Does it matter? Aren't soldiers simply citizens like the rest of us? Certainly, they do a job that is definitely honorable and necessary, but so do many other people.

LEO's are citizens. Soldiers are citizens. So are firemen, garbage collectors, and structural engineers. We are the same. Seems to me we should act like it rather than trying to raise or lower certain segments of society. Who cares who "civilians" are?

 

[RoneKiln]

I'm familiar with your example. Not saying you're wrong but I guess I may have a different take on the issue.

I don't doubt that there are LEO's that would follow any order without thinking about it but I would submit that most LEO's outside of major metropolitan cities would likely NOT just blindly follow any order. I know a handful of LEO's personally and I know that there are a few that post on this forum. What I have learned is that cops tend to be either conservatively leaning or firmly conservative both in political philosophy and action. They have their own personal firearms at home. They support the 2A. They have civilian friends. If the LEO's ever had to follow through on something as egregious (and unlikely) as gun confiscation I have faith that they would balk at this and not follow through. I also believe the civilian gun owning friends would probably serve as a huge example of cognitive dissonance that most (MOST) LEO's would not be able to rationalize and therefore would not follow through with enforcing unenforceble and un-Constitutional edicts. I also think that practically speaking, LEO's would not tolerate getting into firefights everyday against the very people of the community they live in.

YMMV.

In the experiment I referenced, most of those people didn't necessarily follow blindly either. Many of them raised objections and needed to be cajoled or encouraged. Some were in outright tears by the end, but kept going. Add in the sense of not wanting to let their "comrades in arms" down, concern for feeding their families, fear of reprisals, etc, and you could see a lot of upset LEO's and soldiers still following orders they detest.

Of course, the same experiments have also found that a single person making a stand can open the floodgates for others to also stand up. So hopefully there would be enough of those rare individuals willing to make the sacrifice to inspire others.

Most likely, the majority of resistance would be very quiet. It would be the intentional overlook of infractions and not making an effort to find offenders unless it was blatantly shoved in the face of authorities. A lone rural officer might overlook a homeowner fending off an intruder with a handgun. A week later, he might help arrest a group of young men shooting at a gravel pit that incited a bunch of noise complaints from the nearby subdivision. Or he might let them off with a warning if they peacefully turned over their weapons.

Edit to add: Not intending argument Kevatc. Just wanting to expand on the idea that an officer following orders may not be doing so blindly or easily. It may be an extremely hard choice that changes from day to day.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Interviewed lots of LEO's all across the country have you?

My father was a chief of police. Yeah, he interviewed a LOT of cops, and he often talked to me about his experiences. I've been through the LEO hiring process myself and turned down the job due to my aversion to the invasive monitoring of one's personal life that some departments perform (e.g. Like reports of how many beers officer X drank at the ballgame last Saturday. I've personally seen those reports). We also have several retired and active cops in the family. For instance, my nephew is a retired police captain, and my cousin is a retired CHP. Any more questions?

 

[ZigZagZeke]

In a way, I feel sorry for a lot of officers. I did a ride along years ago and the officer I was with broke it down this way, 99% of people can have an argument with a spouse, punish their children, have a civil dispute with a neighbor, etc. like normal, civilized people. The other 1% is what takes up most of the law enforcement's time. I know that's getting a little into the weeds but I think they get so jaded by the scurge of the earth that they have trouble knowing the difference. I think under certain circumstances, a law abiding citizen who refuses to give up their guns and will defend their rights becomes just another scumbag to them. Just my opinion and I'm sure there are a lot of good guys out there in law enforcement, I'm just not convinced they won't be manipulated into taking down enough law abiding folks until it's too late.

My nephew retired as a police captain. At one point in his career he operated as an undercover cop in a drug sting operation. He wore a beard and got tattoos, and drove a souped-up Camaro. Yeah, he finally had to quit that role because he was turning into what he was fighting against, and everyone, to him, was a scumbag.

 

[Kevatc]

In the experiment I referenced, most of those people didn't necessarily follow blindly either. Many of them raised objections and needed to be cajoled or encouraged. Some were in outright tears by the end, but kept going. Add in the sense of not wanting to let their "comrades in arms" down, concern for feeding their families, fear of reprisals, etc, and you could see a lot of upset LEO's and soldiers still following orders they detest.

Of course, the same experiments have also found that a single person making a stand can open the floodgates for others to also stand up. So hopefully there would be enough of those rare individuals willing to make the sacrifice to inspire others.

Most likely, the majority of resistance would be very quiet. It would be the intentional overlook of infractions and not making an effort to find offenders unless it was blatantly shoved in the face of authorities. A lone rural officer might overlook a homeowner fending off an intruder with a handgun. A week later, he might help arrest a group of young men shooting at a gravel pit that incited a bunch of noise complaints from the nearby subdivision. Or he might let them off with a warning if they peacefully turned over their weapons.

Edit to add: Not intending argument Kevatc. Just wanting to expand on the idea that an officer following orders may not be doing so blindly or easily. It may be an extremely hard choice that changes from day to day.

All valid points for sure.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

And why are we arguing who are civilians and who aren't? Does it matter? Aren't soldiers simply citizens like the rest of us? Certainly, they do a job that is definitely honorable and necessary, but so do many other people.

LEO's are citizens. Soldiers are citizens. So are firemen, garbage collectors, and structural engineers. We are the same. Seems to me we should act like it rather than trying to raise or lower certain segments of society. Who cares who "civilians" are?

After seeing the Baltimore chief of police on TV in his military style uniform complete with campaign ribbons on his chest and "general" stars on his collar, yes, I think he and all LEOs need to be reminded that they are not soldiers, we are not the enemy, our streets are not war zones, and unidentified people are NOT assumed to be the enemy, to be dealt with lethally.

 

[Kevatc]

After seeing the Baltimore chief of police on TV in his military style uniform complete with campaign ribbons on his chest and "general" stars on his collar, yes, I think he and all LEOs need to be reminded that they are not soldiers, we are not the enemy, our streets are not war zones, and unidentified people are NOT assumed to be the enemy, to be dealt with lethally.

Agreed. The militarization of law enforcment is very concerning be it how they dress as you mentioned or with the purchase of HMMV's and other military gear. If my memory serves, I think I've even seen some LEO departments that have APC's. Why??????

 

[Father of four]

I think many cops love power and love the tools they get to enforce and use that power with. If they get military type tools they'll be more then happy to use them. Just take a look at many civilian home raids by swat. It looks just like raids in Iraq just not the tan clothing.

Our local police force is for sure militarized. And happy to show it off. Shock and awful on the American Citizens asleep in their beds at 3AM. Shameful really.

 

[Father of four]

I can imagine King Georges troops doing that to the new American Citizens.


Sometimes I agree its necessary when dealing with the bad guys. but all the innocent men and women and children that swat has hurt with flash grenades and worse. No-knock raids is wrong, something should be done about it. But the people in authority have the power so it want. Maybe an internal investigation or two. It never amounts to much.

 

[MountainBear]

Okay, that answers that question. Does this have anything to do with firearms anymore, or has it deteriorated into another "this is what's wrong with the police" thread? I'm not going to pass judgement on that, but if that's what this is, then shouldn't it be in off-topic?

Ohh, and just a point, I think you should tell the officers is Southern California, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, and other states dealing with gangs and cartels that they aren't in a warzone. They might disagree, and they might have a point.

 

[dmancornell]

Ohh, and just a point, I think you should tell the officers is Southern California, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, and other states dealing with gangs and cartels that they aren't in a warzone. They might disagree, and they might have a point.

Sure, they're in a warzone. A war waged by the federal government on the people, and the cops are their willing tools of oppression and violence. Modus operandi of the state: create a problem, then rape the civil rights and wealth of the people masquerading as the solution.

 

[Father of four]

Okay, that answers that question. Does this have anything to do with firearms anymore, or has it deteriorated into another "this is what's wrong with the police" thread? I'm not going to pass judgement on that, but if that's what this is, then shouldn't it be in off-topic?

Ohh, and just a point, I think you should tell the officers is Southern California, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, and other states dealing with gangs and cartels that they aren't in a warzone. They might disagree, and they might have a point.

Like I said a few posts earlier. There are times when an exceptional amount of force is needed and I will stand behind LE 100%. But there is also the militarization of the local police force. That I do not agree with and I think my posts go hand in hand with this thread.

"Your 2nd amendment cop buddy will take your guns." I believe a bunch would and would be more then happy to do it.

Howard