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Honest discussion, no offense intended towards anyone, but the whole "every gun is loaded" thing has always been a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

I can understand a safety instructor with a room full of rowdy teenage boys (or other newbies) using this statement to hammer the concept in. It's life-and-death stuff, That gun is loaded and you will respect it. Cavalier firearm handling can and does result in tragedy. I do understand the statement in this context.

The problem I have with it is that it's not technically/literally true, of course. I do tend to be overly logical in some ways, and my logical mind rebels at saying a gun is loaded, when you don't know if it is or is not. It's logical to me to say that you must treat every gun as a loaded gun, whether it is or isn't. It's illogical to say that a firearm literally has live ammo in the chamber, when you don't know.

For safety's sake, you absolutely assume a gun to be loaded until proven otherwise, but if you walk into a museum and tell the curator that each and every firearm hanging on the wall literally has a live cartridge in the chamber, they'll call security and have you removed from the premises. Yes, there is that (extremely remote) possibility that somehow one got loaded, and they must be treated as such, but in a very literal, practical sense, no, no they are not loaded.

Yes I know I'm overly literal-minded. Yes, I understand why safety instructors say things like this. I'm just explaining why it doesn't work for me.
One of my boys is even more literal-minded than I am (I wonder about that kid sometimes :)), and if I told him that a gun was loaded, and he checked to see that it wasn't, he would wonder why I lied to him. However, I have trained them to always handle every gun as a loaded gun. There is no cavalier or careless gun handling here.
And then there're my own guns within my own home that are stored in my safe that I know for an absolute fact are or are not loaded. Both conditions exist and I know which are which. Because I made them that way. I'm not about to be paranoid/a safety Sally about what I already know is not, and in some cases, has never once been, a loaded firearm
 
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And then there're my own guns within my own home that are stored in my safe that I know for an absolute fact are or are not loaded. Both conditions exist and I know which are which. Because I made them that way. I'm not about to be paranoid/a safety Sally about what I already know is not, and in some cases, has never once been, a loaded firearm
Same here, but at the same time I still handle them like I would a loaded gun, and check them when I take them out of the safe, every time. It's automatic and only takes a second.

On the one hand, it's a deeply ingrained habit, and on the other, I once did find a loaded rifle in my safe. It was about 20 years ago, a hunting rifle with a couple rounds in the blind magazine; my rifle and obviously I put it in there that way. No harm done, but I sure felt stupid. I don't know how it happened and it hasn't happened since, but it made me realize that no matter how remote, it's still a possibility.
 
I hate cats.

All my guns are loaded, even if they’re not.

Paranoid Safety Sallys rarely die from ADs.

If you hand me an empty firearm I’ll still check it because it’s loaded.

Yes there’s a difference but I prefer my way.

Nothing personal.
So, why did you lead off with "I hate cats"?

Was that really necessary?
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Now you've touched a nerve... 🤬🤬🤬

I have uninsured/underinsured insurance on my vehicles. Conversation went something like this...

Sobo: "Why do you recommend that I carry this? Isn't it illegal in this state to drive without insurance?"

Agent: "Why, yes, it is. But many people do not carry insurance, and if one of those people hits you, then it's your insurance that fixes your vehicle, not theirs, since they don't have any. Or enough."

Sobo: "So, I'm paying extra so other dirtbag douchenozzles get to break the law, so that when they phuq up my car, my rates go up. Is that accurate?"

Agent: "Yup, pretty much..."

:mad: 🤬 :mad: 🤬 :mad: 🤬 :mad: 🤬 :mad: 🤬 :mad: 🤬

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OMG!

You sound like ME when it comes to these types of discussions!

This x 1,000!

Cate
 
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tSafety is no joke. When goons like that invade your lane, leaving is usually the best option. You can't fix stuTot

Safety is no joke. When goons like that invade your lane, leaving is usually the best option. You can't fix stupid.
Totally agree. Do not hesitate. Run, do not walk. You can't fix stupid - but stupid can finish you.
 
Couldn’t agree with you more, I’ve ran into this few times on larch not to this extreme but there are a lot of ignorant gun owners out there and it is scary.
Dude this NO JOKE it is insane.. I think we all know guns attract both the smartest and the dumbest of our kind. My brother once had a friend who owned and or shot guns with who's solution to a loud engine noise was to turn the radio up even louder. I bubblegum you not. I'm not going to lie, YES I did think less of my brother for hanging out with these people. We even quit talking altogether for 3-4 years.
This is one of the main reasons I like going to a actual paid range these days but even then in seems the stupid is just pervasive everywhere.
 
Now you've touched a nerve... 🤬🤬🤬

I have uninsured/underinsured insurance on my vehicles. Conversation went something like this...

Sobo: "Why do you recommend that I carry this? Isn't it illegal in this state to drive without insurance?"

Agent: "Why, yes, it is. But many people do not carry insurance, and if one of those people hits you, then it's your insurance that fixes your vehicle, not theirs, since they don't have any. Or enough."

Sobo: "So, I'm paying extra so other dirtbag douchenozzles get to break the law, so that when they phuq up my car, my rates go up. Is that accurate?"

Agent: "Yup, pretty much..."

:mad: 🤬 :mad: 🤬 :mad: 🤬 :mad: 🤬 :mad: 🤬 :mad: 🤬

View attachment 1260215
Yeah the last accident I was in the POS drove head on into me in my old 92 astro van going down the wrong way of a two lane road to bypass traffic. He was a spoiled kid very young like first car young in a 2005? BMW 745 didn't even have a license let alone insurance! When we hit I was nosing out between the cars backed up at the light (because they were letting me through) it was a Mercedes SUV and when I hit it was at a angle so I spun a bit, I'm VERY glad I barely missed the Merc. By inches... That would have cleared my underinsured insurance I had. I now have MUCH higher coverage ;)
Also I can remember the specific term they use for it (I want to say ghost driver?) But swerving to miss someone and then hitting something/someone else is YOUR fault! So best to just let them hit you (I guess??!!??) Or ram their azz first if its going to happen anyway?? Idk.
This is the second person that hit me without a license. They are everywhere.

There NEEDS to be manditory 1 year in jail for driving without a license or insurance. (And I'm not talking slipped coverage or lic exp by a few days etc.)

Rant over (man *stupid people piss me off a lot!)
 
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I had this happen a while back at the private outdoor range that I belong to. As I’d already been there by myself for a couple of hours, I was planning on packing up and leaving when a few young guys showed up together. They looked as if they were there to sight their new rifles in.

I called cold-range so they could go set up their targets and I could retrieve mine — (the duty of R.O. is self-policed by members). They set up their targets at the 100 line, and walked back to the benches.

As I was walking back from the 200 line after collecting my steel, I see one of the (essentially)kids sitting at one of the benches; peering through the optic on his rifle that’s pointed down-range.

I about lost it when I made it back to the benches. I’m positive that I scared the crap out of him and his friends. I haven’t been that angry in a while. Not to toot my own horn, but I’m already kind of an intimidating looking guy, and that’s when I’m not extremely pissed off.

Not surprisingly, he acknowledged his error immediately and they all thanked me for reminding them the importance of firearms safety and educating(or reeducating) them on range protocol.

I‘m sure it was an honest mistake on the kid’s part; probably excited to see the view downrange with his new optic.

Later on, I gave thought that I should’ve taken his member info… At the least, filed a complaint so it was on record in case he F’ed up again. But I was so steamed I got out of there.

My hope is that I left an impression on them that stuck.
 
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I sometimes think the disconnect between subsequent generations and those now emerging, at least with regards to common sense, is that it was necessary for past generation to survive that they be taught as early as possible what could save your life, and what is likely to end it. The failure of new shooters to conceptualize that the path to tragedy is almost always the result of a series of mistakes is a good analog of the greater decline of our society. I personally believe it all began with parent's understandable intentions of shielding their children from the dangers of the world, especially following 9/11, but instead of preparing them to deal with it, they set the stage for most of what we see today.
 
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Honest discussion, no offense intended towards anyone, but the whole "every gun is loaded" thing has always been a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

I can understand a safety instructor with a room full of rowdy teenage boys (or other newbies) using this statement to hammer the concept in. It's life-and-death stuff, That gun is loaded and you will respect it. Cavalier firearm handling can and does result in tragedy. I do understand the statement in this context.

The problem I have with it is that it's not technically/literally true, of course. I do tend to be overly logical in some ways, and my logical mind rebels at saying a gun is loaded, when you don't know if it is or is not. It's logical to me to say that you must treat every gun as a loaded gun, whether it is or isn't. It's illogical to say that a firearm literally has live ammo in the chamber, when you don't know.

For safety's sake, you absolutely assume a gun to be loaded until proven otherwise, but if you walk into a museum and tell the curator that each and every firearm hanging on the wall literally has a live cartridge in the chamber, they'll call security and have you removed from the premises. Yes, there is that (extremely remote) possibility that somehow one got loaded, and they must be treated as such, but in a very literal, practical sense, no, no they are not loaded.

Yes I know I'm overly literal-minded. Yes, I understand why safety instructors say things like this. I'm just explaining why it doesn't work for me.
One of my boys is even more literal-minded than I am (I wonder about that kid sometimes :)), and if I told him that a gun was loaded, and he checked to see that it wasn't, he would wonder why I lied to him. However, I have trained them to always handle every gun as a loaded gun. There is no cavalier or careless gun handling here.
Being another logically-minded person I had the same hangup initially. An instructor explained that the premise of "every gun is loaded" is not about describing reality. It's about creating a state of mind in the shooter that reinforces caution and combats potentially negligent behavior as a safeguard against human error.

In reality you could clear a gun, validate that it's completely empty, and then point it at your friend and pull the trigger. It's not going to kill him because you physically validated that it was not loaded. You could point that same gun at your own head and pull the trigger. You checked and made sure it was empty, so physically you won't die.

But would you actually do any of that? Hell no, because what if you screwed up? What if you didn't actually clear it? What if someone else handled it between when you cleared it and now? Assumptions can be deadly when guns are involved, so we default to the greatest level of caution possible to prolong our lives and keep ourselves out of jail.
 
Being another logically-minded person I had the same hangup initially. An instructor explained that the premise of "every gun is loaded" is not about describing reality. It's about creating a state of mind in the shooter that reinforces caution and combats potentially negligent behavior as a safeguard against human error.
This description here is NWF gold. I know for some it is difficult to move past the logical / literal into an absolute state of mind, but to me it is essential. Great comment!
 
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This description here is NWF gold. I know for some it is difficult to move past the logical / literal into an absolute state of mind, but to me it is essential. Great comment!
Yep. Anyone who has adopted the mindset and way of life change to never violate the 4 safety rules will never had a ND (unless a victim from someone else who broke the safety rules). I would feel comfortable shooting side by side on the range with anyone who has made this commitment.

On the other hand if one's pet peeves, or personal inconvenience, or whatever is more important than making a personal commitment to never violate the safety rules, then the chance of having a ND is there. A person who has adopted the safety mindset would not violate them for any reason (even under duress, in training, etc, much less for personal
inconvenience). I would be very cautious of shooting next to someone like this because I know the safety rules are not part of their psyche, or way of life.
 
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Being another logically-minded person I had the same hangup initially. An instructor explained that the premise of "every gun is loaded" is not about describing reality. It's about creating a state of mind in the shooter that reinforces caution and combats potentially negligent behavior as a safeguard against human error.

In reality you could clear a gun, validate that it's completely empty, and then point it at your friend and pull the trigger. It's not going to kill him because you physically validated that it was not loaded. You could point that same gun at your own head and pull the trigger. You checked and made sure it was empty, so physically you won't die.

But would you actually do any of that? Hell no, because what if you screwed up? What if you didn't actually clear it? What if someone else handled it between when you cleared it and now? Assumptions can be deadly when guns are involved, so we default to the greatest level of caution possible to prolong our lives and keep ourselves out of jail.
There's no real practical difference between these two perspectives. Whether you treat every gun as a loaded gun, or insist every gun is loaded until you've checked, you treat them the same. If you say a gun is loaded until you make sure it isn't, don't you still follow basic safety rules once you've checked? It's about drilling in those safety rules so you follow them subconsciously, even under stress, when you're tired, scared, distracted, etc..

I believe that the "every gun is loaded" statement is primarily a safety instructor thing, hyperbole intended to stress the life-and-death importance of safe gun handling. I get it, and that's fine if that's how you see it. I also realize that there will be those who will judge me and call me unsafe because I disagree with their semantics, even though I follow the same safety rules every bit as strictly.

The more I think about it, it really is exactly like Schrodinger's Cat. Let's say I unload a gun and set it on a table. You walk into the room and see it. I know it's unloaded, because I unloaded it. You say it's loaded, because every gun is loaded. Unloaded and loaded at the same time. ;)
You'll handle it carefully because you think it's loaded (Think or know? I know it's unloaded, but you think it's loaded.)
I will treat it just as carefully though, because I treat every gun as a loaded gun, even when it isn't.
 
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Being another logically-minded person I had the same hangup initially. An instructor explained that the premise of "every gun is loaded" is not about describing reality. It's about creating a state of mind in the shooter that reinforces caution and combats potentially negligent behavior as a safeguard against human error.

In reality you could clear a gun, validate that it's completely empty, and then point it at your friend and pull the trigger. It's not going to kill him because you physically validated that it was not loaded. You could point that same gun at your own head and pull the trigger. You checked and made sure it was empty, so physically you won't die.

But would you actually do any of that? Hell no, because what if you screwed up? What if you didn't actually clear it? What if someone else handled it between when you cleared it and now? Assumptions can be deadly when guns are involved, so we default to the greatest level of caution possible to prolong our lives and keep ourselves out of jail.
Ha! I'm going to quote you too. When I took my concealed carry class, (some people say they're mostly worthless), the teacher went over the, "Never pointing a gun at anything you didn't intend to destroy". He made a point to emphasize the muzzle control he used with the SP-01 as he stood in front of us. Muzzle up or muzzle down as he moved the gun from side to side. Making the point of NOT sweeping the class with the muzzle. That stuck with me. To the point of getting a twinge of heeby-jeebys when I see rifles on the tables at gun shows pointing at the vendor.

I wish we knew how to instill that mind set in all gun owners. I'll guess that those that don't have that/can't get that mindset are the same people that are disrespectful and discourteous in other parts of their lives.
 

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