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people aren't born with gun safety knowledge. it's not "common sense". nothing can fix that but training and experience.

the gun community would scream bloody murder, but i don't think it's a bad idea for a show of some level of competence before buying a gun.
The problem with this is all you have to do is drive during rush hour. All those vehicles are being driven by people who showed competency to be able to drive. Now of course what the morons are doing now they did not do when being tested. So its not that they do not know better. Guns are no different. I RARELY see a close call or accident with a gun and a new shooter. Damn near every time you see stuff that is beyond stupid its people who are shooters already and think being stupid is "fun". The people that stick their hand in the lawn mower when its running do not do it the first day they have the mower. They learn how to use it first, get confident, then they stick their hand in it. :eek:
 
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I wouldn’t feel comfortable letting somebody on the same lane as me. Simply because I have no idea what level of firearm arms handling they have. Even people who you trust you need to stress the importance of safety. When I bring new shooters I always stress to have the barrel pointed down range at all times. Never point it at somebody loaded or not. The people who do not follow simple safety procedures are the reason why going to a range is such a pain…
 
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Actually I do think just like you as I did say "nicely in front of his son". 😉
I guess I should offer up an apology to you. It's the story you were telling us that was so angry, not you at the range! It did get a good conversation going though. If it were me I doubt I'd be able to say anything to them. So I admire you for being able to try and teach the guy a valuable lesson. I hope he takes it to heart.
I wonder what % of new gun owners know the four rules of gun safety? And how many of those actually practice it religiously?

To us that have been shooting a long time hopefully it is automatic. But what about the newer gun owners?
I think it would be good for gun shops to voluntarily offer several minutes emphasizing gun safety with anyone they sell guns to. A table with a couple of chairs and a pile of cards with the four basic rules written on them for the buyers. The wife and I are still new to guns compared to most here. I/we had never done any serious gun handling until 2010. I was born with a good dose of common sense and smarts though. The basics are pretty much common sense. When I think back of buying our first guns from shops, there's no offer of any gun safety rules. Other that what's in the little book that comes with the gun. I'd never heard the 4-rules. And when I think back on it now? Oof. It was REAL obvious that we were noobs to the shops. :oops:

No, you're not the only one, Mike. When I'm on duty at my range, I'm nearly 100% of the time the calm, gentle, old dude ready to help a n00b if a question or issue arises, slow to reprimand, and certainly not loudly/publicly - unless the violation is soooooooooo egregious that I would cuff my own mother for it!

Case in point... this one young woman was having a devil of a time with her handgun, with nearly every round an FTF or FTE. The gun was being exceedingly recalcitrant - it wouldn't eject, then when she was able to chamber a new round, it wouldn't go into battery, then when she finally got it into battery (???), it wouldn't fire, then she couldn't eject the unfired round. A real CF going on there! I motioned to my RSO compadre to watch the rest of the line, and I took a special interest in her, as she seemed like she could use some help or at least another set of eyes on the gun. Her BF in the lane to her right seemed oblivious to her issues with that gun. He was in his own little world. But when she started trying to rack her gun with it held across the front of her waist, pointing directly at the man in the lane to her left, with a not-empty mag and a live round in the chamber (even though the slide was not in battery), I leapt into action! From my position behind and to her left, I couldn't tell if she had her finger on the trigger, but that didn't even matter to me. I needed her to stop what she was doing, and toot-sweet!

But did I yell at her? No, because I figured that might startle her and she could conceivably shoot the guy to her left if I surprised her. So, with a gentle "Whoa there" and my hand guiding the muzzle away from her "target" next door and back to pointing downrange, I quietly told her not to point her gun at the guy next to her. She didn't even realize what she had done, and I don't think the guy to her left even knew what had happened. She showed what appeared to me to be some serious contrition. Yelling at her would not have helped the situation at all. By now, since there was a bearded, hairy, old man standing in close proximity to his GF, the BF took an interest and came over, and I quietly but firmly explained to the both of them that they needed to either take that gun apart and diagnose/fix its problems, or stop trying to shoot it. And in no uncertain terms, not to repeat what I had just stopped her from doing, or I would have to eject her. She put the gun away and he said they would take it to a 'smith in town for a peek-see. That was good enough for me. And then they proceeded to thank me profusely for the intervention. In the end, no yelling, no drama, no embarrassment...

So, you see, Mike, it's like @Kruel J said, "Depends on the range."
So as I said above, I had the common sense to not do stoopid crap with guns. When we joined The Johnson Creek Gun Club we had a one-on-one with an owner/administrator as an orientation. We went slowly over all the rules of the club. At the time some of the rules seemed a little odd. But oh well, it's their club. Having to place your cased gun with muzzle down range to pull it out of the case. I still remember him saying, "You'll learn which way the gun is in the case". And by golly, I did! Also, when done firing, drop mag, leave slide back and open chamber facing up. All these things now are second nature to us. I wish there was more people pushing for better education of gun owners/buyers. Public service announcements on TV/radio? You could almost hear the democrats heads exploding!
 
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people aren't born with gun safety knowledge. it's not "common sense". nothing can fix that but training and experience.

the gun community would scream bloody murder, but i don't think it's a bad idea for a show of some level of competence before buying a gun.
Here in the UK, where things a totally different - only BANG is the same - we have no public ranges like you do.

All our target shooting ranges belong to clubs or associations, and you have to be a full member of a club BEFORE you can even apply to get a Firearms Certificate for whatever gun it is you want.

Full membership of a gun club follows on from SIX months probationary period - which is mandatory. During that time, there is a one-day initial tutorial on safety and range etiquette, followed by a familiarity session with a number of different types of guns that they will encounter over the probie period. During that six months they will not only get to shoot the club guns, but are also allowed to shoot any gun offered to them by other FULL members. They are required to log in the type and calibre of the guns to show the committee that they are taking things onboard, and prove it with a series of three tests, one of which in nationally compulsory in order to shoot on ANY range shared with the military - and that is a LOT of ranges, Bisley included.

Only after proving that they are a safe pair of hands, and six months, are they judged fit to become full members, and then, having got their full membership documents, they can begin the process of acquiring their own guns. The first referee on the application is always the secretary of the club.

In this way, nobody buys a gun that they don't know how to operate safely.

And no stranger can just mosey up to the firing point and cut loose with something better suited to blowing a Cape Buffalo out of his hoofprints at 100 yards.
 
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I wish there was more people pushing for better education of gun owners/buyers.
Hate to say this, but that education is mandatory when you join a club. Much of it isn’t demeaning, but legitimate for the safety of others and the longevity of the club.

In a lifetime of education in public administration and sociology, most public things take decades longer to establish than private organizations. Usually those in public administration (aka government) look to change the item or product vs changing the public. Mostly as the public is far too stupid to change fast enough.

In a private club, a strict ruling can be taught and learned due to necessity and or any reason so long as there can be a threat of removal from said private club. With zero threat or repercussions in a public space, there is almost zero desire to learn or follow any sort of rules.

Dealing with the public can be incredibly difficult. I no longer have the stomach for it and I commend those that continue there efforts to expand safe and responsible recreational activities.
 
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. All these things now are second nature to us. I wish there was more people pushing for better education of gun owners/buyers. Public service announcements on TV/radio? You could almost hear the democrats heads exploding!
Reminded me of my first hunting license. Was I think 10. State had it so to get one at that age you had to pass a safety course taught by the NRA. Went on for several weeks at a school in the evenings. Talk about hair on fire heads exploding? If they did that now? :s0140:
 
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Reminded me of my first hunting license. Was I think 10. State had it so to get one at that age you had to pass a safety course taught by the NRA. Went on for several weeks at a school in the evenings. Talk about hair on fire heads exploding? If they did that now? :s0140:
I think a short course on firearm safety would be great with the caveat that it be incentive-based and not forced on poeple.

Fe if a partnership between NRA/manufacturers/other could give a $20-$30 discount on a gun sale at the ffl if people attended a short safety course. NRA could spend money on that instead of millions for executive Golden parachutes. That way it's not a requirement but enough incentive that poeple would do it. Heck it could even be a 10 min instruction right there at the ffl f.e. The key is that it be 100% voluntary.

Also the opportunities to get youth involved in shooting needs to increase about 100 times current level imo. Currently students are taught by ignorant adults that guns are bad (even toy guns) and there is no counter-teaching to that going on. So that means over time firearm owners will eventually die out and the antis will get their way. We need to counter that by encouraging shooting sports etc with youth on a national level imo.
 
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Maybe I ought to have mentioned that around a one-third of our 480 or so membership are fully qualified NRA RCO's - on their own dollar. It is NOT compulsory, but it IS recommended, as is the add-on muzzleloading check-in-the-box. If fact, I know that EVERYBODY who shoots BP in any form is a NRA-taught BP RCO.

Those of us who were in the Armed Forces as OR's and those who, like me, who were subsequently commissioned, had to undertake three levels of range operations during our non-com rank upgrading courses, ending up with the running of a notional or even actual company-size range exercise lasting a full week, with all the other stuff that hangs on it - transport, messing, accommodation, other activities and so on, as well as all the range time and management that goes along with running a shoot for up to 180 soldiers. And from L/Cpl rank, we became used to running ranges as a matter of course, from basic TOETs right up to recruit qualification shoots. As the ranks got higher, so did the expectations of the command staff and your confidence in running a range with eyes swivelling in all directions.

In the British Armed Forces, attendance on live-firing range is classed as a formal parade, and ends up with a mini-parade of all those attending. A warning of the dire consequences of 'removing from a live-firing range, any live round, empty case or pyrotechnic' is administered by the person conducting the range, and each shooter has to 'show clear' - not only the arm they were shooting, but ammo pouches et al, and declare that he or she has 'no live rounds, empty cases or pyrotechnics in my possession, SIR!' The use of 'Sir' is to remind the assembly that the SCNO is acting on behalf of the Commanding Officer, whether or not he or she is actually there.

As result of all this experience, we are assessed as being PQ - Permanently Qualified - with the reservation that it remains your own responsibility to keep up to date with range procedures that might come down from the civilian-led United Kingdom National Rifle Association which, incidentally, not only pre-dates the USA NRA - a quasi-political association - but was founded at Wimbledon Ranges, now the site of a high-priced bat-and-ball game show, where people skilled in the use of a bat strung with the innards of household pets labour in the sun to earn many millions of dollars for their ability to look good whilst doing it.

BTW, unlike the parvenue nature and political leanings of the upper echelons of the US NRA, here in UK the patron is none other than Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, herself a former noted and highly-regarded rifle shot 'on the hill', and flighting game-shooter with a very high degree of skill.
 
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I think a short course on firearm safety would be great with the caveat that it be incentive-based and not forced on poeple.

Fe if a partnership between NRA/manufacturers/other could give a $20-$30 discount on a gun sale at the ffl if people attended a short safety course. NRA could spend money on that instead of millions for executive Golden parachutes. That way it's not a requirement but enough incentive that poeple would do it. Heck it could even be a 10 min instruction right there at the ffl f.e. The key is that it be 100% voluntary.

Also the opportunities to get youth involved in shooting needs to increase about 100 times current level imo. Currently students are taught by ignorant adults that guns are bad (even toy guns) and there is no counter-teaching to that going on. So that means over time forearm owners will eventually die out and the antis will get their way. We need to counter that by encouraging shooting sports etc with youth on a national level imo.
Yep, Its been over 50 years ago I took that course and I still fondly remember it. The incentive for me back then was being able to buy my hunting license at that young age. I used to look forward to the nights we would get dropped off at the school for the class. End of it the instructors took all of us to a shooting range on a Saturday to shoot live ammo with .22 rifles. Sad that stuff like this can no longer be done :(
 
Yep, Its been over 50 years ago I took that course and I still fondly remember it. The incentive for me back then was being able to buy my hunting license at that young age. I used to look forward to the nights we would get dropped off at the school for the class. End of it the instructors took all of us to a shooting range on a Saturday to shoot live ammo with .22 rifles. Sad that stuff like this can no longer be done :(
It still exists in E WA, at my range. Annual Youth Firearms Training and Shoot. We get probably 2 dozen kids every year, most of them young girls, BION...
Seems the younger boys gravitate toward the HESA classes, which we do a couple-three times per year.
 
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I have this same question for long time gun owners.....
Isn’t that the truth. Some of the worst gun handling I’ve seen has been people who should know better.

A couple decades ago I used to shoot with a good friend. Some of the stuff he did made me cringe, even back then. Nowadays I wouldn’t put up with it at all. He really should have known better, especially as a Marine and a Gulf War veteran (different guy from my previous story).
 
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The problem I’ve seen nowadays is that everyone is so uptight and so paranoid about the person next to them that it totally takes all the joy out of going shooting. Too many people that think they’re commandos, too many who don’t make an effort to learn the basics and the jack asses that work at the range that act like king sh_t and glare at you as if you’ve made a mistake by simply breathing.
If possible I would prefer to shoot on a private range or somewhere outside that is legal to shoot. Preferably with individuals who are serious about safety but at the same time not lunatics about it to where you can’t even actually ever shoot the gun.

Fox News Finger Guns GIF
 
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Isn’t that the truth. Some of the worst gun handling I’ve seen has been people who should know better.
The conversations I used to have, the utter stupidity I have seen from those I’d expect to know better.

Honestly, I’m surprised I never got shot at.

I used to approach folks in the woods when working with Oregon Department of Forestry on inventorying dispersed shooting lanes. Trying to start up dialogue about unsafe and poor practices. Usually I’d ask at some point why they set up targets the way they did or why they parked their car the way they did. Maybe 1/5 would be the type that simply did not give a rats bubblegum. Saying things like, “I go to the woods to avoid people like you.” IE I want to do whatever I want and I don’t care.

Even folks that, like you said should absolutely know better, do dumb things in the woods because they know there isn’t anyone out there going to tell them that’s not a good choice.

I would even go far as to say there are folks on here, NWFA, that are some probably some of the worse gun owners when it comes to this subject. They just don’t say it here!
 
The conversations I used to have, the utter stupidity I have seen from those I’d expect to know better.

Honestly, I’m surprised I never got shot at.

I used to approach folks in the woods when working with Oregon Department of Forestry on inventorying dispersed shooting lanes. Trying to start up dialogue about unsafe and poor practices. Usually I’d ask at some point why they set up targets the way they did or why they parked their car the way they did. Maybe 1/5 would be the type that simply did not give a rats bubblegum. Saying things like, “I go to the woods to avoid people like you.” IE I want to do whatever I want and I don’t care.

Even folks that, like you said should absolutely know better, do dumb things in the woods because they know there isn’t anyone out there going to tell them that’s not a good choice.

I would even go far as to say there are folks on here, NWFA, that are some probably some of the worse gun owners when it comes to this subject. They just don’t say it here!
I'll say it. :D
 
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I used to approach folks in the woods when working with Oregon Department of Forestry on inventorying dispersed shooting lanes. Trying to start up dialogue about unsafe and poor practices. Usually I’d ask at some point why they set up targets the way they did or why they parked their car the way they did. Maybe 1/5 would be the type that simply did not give a rats bubblegum. Saying things like, “I go to the woods to avoid people like you.” IE I want to do whatever I want and I don’t care.
Yep. I've overheard similar sentiments at the range: "WELL, SH* IF I CAN'T DO I WANT, I'M JUST GONNA GO BACK TO THE WOODS" (puffs chest out and turns red).

Apparently the woods is where you can go do whatever you want...

Please go back to the woods. You will not be missed.
 
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