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Would You?

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by mkwerx, Dec 6, 2015.

  1. mkwerx

    mkwerx Forest Grove, OR Well-Known Member

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    Had a long run yesterday, and as usual on those long trips, I have time (too much time?) to think. So I came up with something I'm sure I'm not the only one to think of.

    Lets say you are out minding your own business - you could be out with a loved one, you could be shopping, you could be at work, or you could be out walking your dog. In any case, you are armed with a handgun. Everything is "normal" until you hear someone scream "allah ackbar" - your attention snaps toward that direction. You see a person - they appear to be middle eastern ethnicity - they have their arms raised, they have a backpack strapped on backwards - so it's on their chest and not their back. They have something you cannot readily identify in their hand. They scream "allah ackbar" a second time. You don't know what if anything is in the backpack. You can't ID the object in their hand.

    Decision time - do you try to run and call authorities, do you try to draw and put one in his brain pain before he has a chance to scream "allah ackbar" one more time then call 911, or?

    That's a big crap sandwhich - but it seems like this scenario is becoming more likely to be less a mental exercise, than a real possibility. It COULD be some stupid jackass pranking people. It COULD be a mentally disturbed person with no weapon or bomb. It COULD be a suicide bomber looking for his or her 72 virgins. You have literally a split second to decide, and if you shoot and succeed at putting the person down, the prosecution would have years to crawl up your butt with a microscope. Loretta Lynch will probably personally show up with a speculum to spread your cheeks with. If you don't act and it's a bomber - you will probably be dead. Possibly dozens of others dead too. If it's NOT a real bomber and you kill them - now you have to defend your actions.
     
  2. Pops1911

    Pops1911 Cinebar/Issaquah Well-Known Member

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    Quick - Strategic retreat with loved ones. Assess from afar. Like the Christmas carol says - We Three Kings Assess from Afar.
     
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  3. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I would shoot if a gun was in his hand - maybe; except for the fact that you posted that we can not identify what he is holding. If it's a dead mans switch then I more then likely made things worse...

    Damn what ifs:confused:
     
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  4. ZA_Survivalist

    ZA_Survivalist Oregon AK's all day.

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    Im no good dead, if it looked like he was about to detonate he'll blow before I could probably make a shot.
    Id hit the deck or get behind cover to the best of my ability.

    If I truely saw someone fitting that discription, backpack backwards, something in hand and yelling things Id try to get the best visual of the guy and the situation.

    My proximity would dictate my actions.
    Close? Id walk up and possibly confront him.. Its like yelling fire in a theater, I think if you yelled radical islam quotes out loud and looked threatning then yes, I think at that time you have worried folks to the point of action, and it is no longer free speech.

    If it was down the hall, at a mall or crowded building? I may duck behind a wall and wait a sec, he'd blow up before I could make it to him and get a shot. This would also help because I wouldnt jump the gun and attack what would most likely be a stupid teen making a joke with his friends to freak people out.

    If he had what looked like a firearm, I may not hesitate, tackle/disarm maybe fire first..
    As a firearm guys Im quite sure we can differentiate a CC printing/reholstering and even OCing from someone who has just drew their weapon and is about to fire or has an item we can itentify as a threat.. Perhaps NOT a camera tripod as a mini gun though.

    This is a tricky question. Id like to believe I would do what was right (at any risk, at the time) to save others despite any negative outcome. Id try to take less lethal actions first at the risk of self injury or legal repercussions.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
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  5. edslhead

    edslhead Vanc Gold Supporter Gold Supporter Silver Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    you hear someone scream "allah ackbar"

    I yell back gesundheit :p
     
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  6. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Cover/retreat first, getting my family out of the way if they are with me. I could only guess, based on your scenario, what that guy is really doing. Yelling out is not a crime, and likely, if we were to take a shot based on that, we'd end up in prison, maybe even if he had a bomb, simply because the threat wasn't really there yet. I'm not military, I'm not LE, so I don't see it as my duty to confront any and all threats.

    As to ZA's comment, if he had a gun and was yelling that, then I'd say the threat is imminent and you could be more justified if you did take action. I don't carry to challenge all threats, I carry to protect myself and my family. If the circumstances are such that I will also save others, then so be it. And if I can help by directing others away from the threat and to safety, I will do so.

    If, however, I find myself in a room with only one exit and he's between me and it, that may change things enough that I may just change my answer. To be honest, until the time comes that I'm faced with that scenario, which is extremely unlikely (though not entirely impossible), I really won't know exactly what my response will be.

    Thankfully, the chances of any of us ever facing this is exceedingly remote, but it will happen to some. This is our new reality, and we need to be ready, eyes open and aware, and if and when it does happen, act, don't freeze up like a deer in the headlights.
     
  7. pioneer461

    pioneer461 Columbia County, Oregon Active Member

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    You can only do what you can do. There are a truck-load of "it depends" in the scenario you present. In my LE career, I've been involved in and have investigated many shootings. It all comes down to your experience, training and the situation present at the time, AS YOU PERCEIVE IT, or what was in your mind at the split second you shot. Sometimes it turns out that you are spot-on and totally justified. Sometimes not. Even in the most righteous use of force, if there is a political or racial component that the "news" media can exploit, you can bet they will be all over it. They love controversial shootings. It helps their ratings.

    In the modern world it is not uncommon for women and children to present a clear and present danger, despite what the president says. We're through the looking glass in dealing with Islamic extremists (unlike the president, I'm not afraid to say what they truly are). The rules of engagement are changing.

    This is something that I'm sure most of us have already contemplated recently. ISIS and other terrorists are here. No longer is the enemy "at the gates," they are already inside the wire.

    If some idiot thinks it's funny to fake a suicide vest, hold a bunch of wires in his / her hand and yell Allahu Akbar, you (we) can't be held responsible for what others may do. Having said that however, doesn't mean that some politically motivated prosecutor won't try.

    You can only do what you can do. Stay ready, so you don't have to get ready.

    The United States Constitution C.1791
    All Rights Reserved​


     
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  8. erudne

    erudne The Pie Matrix PPL Say Sleeping W/Your Rifle Is A bad Thing? Bronze Supporter

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    Get behind a starry eyed Liberal then fight my way to my rifle
     
  9. SOrez

    SOrez SOR Active Member

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    No weapon present, I would put myself between the perp and my loved ones, then evacuate the area as fast as possible. While doing so I would call 911.
     
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  10. Medic!

    Medic! What just happened? Has eagle eyes. But cant remember what he saw. Bronze Supporter

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    I was near, and part of too may large explosions in the Army.
    Now maybe you haven't been around any. But you don't unknown what they feel like.
    Or unsee what they do.

    He11. I cant even do fireworks anymore. They make my but pucker!

    So honestly? [And I hope you don't think me a coward] I would turn and run FAST from ANYTHING I thought was going to explode!

    I wouldn't have to think or nuthin. I'd run!!!!!!!!!!

    Truth!

    Edit: I forgot to say. I recommend you do the same.;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
  11. P7id10T

    P7id10T Cedar Hills Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Hands raised, on the second shout, it's done. Hopefully I'd already be on the deck, having pushed my wife down first, and covering her. Unless you train for it, the mental connection between the act and your response can be slow enough to be fatal or, if your survice, too late.

    Flip the scenario: you've trained well. Draw and shoot after the first hail, and the guy drops like a limp rag doll.
    #1: He's yelling praise Allah to his family members, behind you, who are walking up. That reverse backpack is his infant son, sleeping in a Baby Bjorn. What do you do?
    #2: Yep, you called it right, and luckily it was not a deadman's switch. After securing his ordinance, do you slip away?
    #3: It was a dead man's switch. Hopefully you'll survive the percussion and shrapnel in his pack.

    About a year ago I read a checklist (IIRC, 13 items) that the Mossad produced on recognizing suicide bombers. I think it was something like "if the subject qualified on 9, take action."
     
  12. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    I would shout "Aloha Snackbar To you was well my friend!" :D
     
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  13. Mark W.

    Mark W. Silverton, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Interesting enough my son who along with being an electronics tech in the US NAVY was assigned as part of his ships security. In his training for standing watch while in port he had this exact training. He was to shoot, shoot, shoot the threat as soon as the Sailor believed the threat was real. So to answer your question as soon as I thought the thread was real I would shoot until the threat was over. Granted that might mean I blow up with the bad guy but as my son said the Navy trained him it is better the end the threat before the target can reach their goal.
     
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  14. 41Slinger

    41Slinger Harrisburg Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    My comment and actions if I had time would include, F U you POS and then turn and protect my family. If and when I then felt safe to react I would then prepare to kill the POS if needed.
     
  15. clearconscience

    clearconscience Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    If you put a hot one in his dome, you may go to jail.

    But if looking intimidating and threatening, I might send my family fleeing and do just that.

    Like the clackamas shooter running through the store to the mall yelling I am the shooter. I wish a CC'er would have terminated that dueshe before he made it to the mall.
     
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  16. decklin

    decklin WA Well-Known Member

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    That's tough. Obviously situation dictates.
    My preferred reaction is to run and cover.
    As Medic! Said you don't unknow what an explosion feels like.
    But since a drunk crippled my right leg I'd probably do what I was trained to do in the Infantry.
    2 rounds in rapid succession through his incapacitation zone.
    Followed by the rest of the mag.
     
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  17. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    Tried by twelve over carried by six... every time.
     
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  18. Charliehorse

    Charliehorse Cascade Mts - State of Jefferson USA Well-Known Member

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    1. Call my attorney and make sure he'll back me.
    2. Call my ins agent and make sure my liability ins will cover me.
    3. Post pics to instagram.
    4. Post to fb & twitter live feed to my 9 friends & followers.
    5. Open the new box of ammo and load all 3 of my 'clips'. :confused:
    6. Load gun and holster weapon.
    7. Text appointee brown and make sure she approves having a gun in that location and state whether I bought it at a gun dealer, those bad gun shows, or worse a private party....


    Who am I?
    (Insert joke about Willamette Valley culture here____) stickpoke.gif


    KIDDING! :D
    >>>

    I think this is the key - if it is not a clear and present danger, retreat to safety and call 911.
    If it IS a Clear and Present Danger, let's roll.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
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  19. erudne

    erudne The Pie Matrix PPL Say Sleeping W/Your Rifle Is A bad Thing? Bronze Supporter

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    th?id=OIP.Mb2809ab856a692a146a477db66ce9faeo0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300.jpg
    :rolleyes: I'd get behind her!
     
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  20. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    Probably run away. A dead man switch works after they are dead. go figure
     
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