Would you go back to hunter gatherer lifestyle to experience more freedom?

[Cavedweller]

The homeless downtown are a sort of modern day hunter and gatherer.

Not really. They are attracted to the places they live by the availability of various free goods and services provided by government and well-meaning charities that facilitate their lifestyle: Needle exchange programs, "safe" injection sites, free camping gear, soup kitchens, cash handouts, and when they need it, emergency medical care. They are far from self-sufficient. They are dependent on the largess of a working population. They are more like moocher-gatherers.

 

[Cavedweller]

The hunter-gatherer society is a bit too primitive for me. Everyone is at a subsistence level of existence. Every day is centered on the activities necessary to fill one's stomach, with little or no time for anything else. An agrarian preindustrial society would be preferable. Agriculture allows a segment of the population to concentrate on food production, while the remainder can specialize in skills which improve everyone's standard of living: the blacksmith, the cobbler, the carpenter, etc. Just theoretically speaking, of course. I like electricity, refrigeration, and other modern conveniences. And you can't overlook what the washing machine has meant for the lives of women.

 

[Cavedweller]

Good question lots of little things and not so little things too. Pretty much anything regarding firearm restrictions, what I can and can't do on my property are big ones. Taxes are a huge thorn in my side. I will give this some thought and post more tomorrow.

1) If we ditched all technology, there wouldn't be any firearms. That would kind of make your goal moot.

2) If you spend all your time looking for food, you could end up with less freedom, not more. Less or no government might not mean more freedom if you have no time to enjoy it.

 

[albin25]

I'll let you know what I think...
.... just as soon as I can get my quill pen and parchment to upload to this thread.

I had to give up on the stone slab and chisel, 'cuz the mallet it came with is no longer supported by MicroSaurus!

 

[L84Cabo]

I have no idea who John Zerzan is. But he is, most certainly, an idiot. Like most anarchists.

There is no such thing as a simple hunter gatherer lifestyle with all the hunter gatherers peacefully coexisting and/or commingling. The world would descend into tribalism pretty damn quickly. Kinda like the purge but with clubs and spears since all the technology was somehow done away with.

No thanks.

 

[mrblond]

I have no idea who John Zerzan is. But he is, most certainly, an idiot. Like most anarchists.

There is no such thing as a simple hunter gatherer lifestyle with all the hunter gatherers peacefully coexisting and/or commingling. The world would descend into tribalism pretty damn quickly. Kinda like the purge but with clubs and spears since all the technology was somehow done away with.

No thanks.

the purge + a big bubblegum BBQ!!!

AYCE Long pig!

 

[Xaevian]

the purge + a big bubblegum BBQ!!!

AYCE Long pig!

I would only eat vegans....and tell all the other cannies how much more superior and enlightened I was for doing it. Over and over again.

 

[Shurpok]

John Zerzan (anarchist/primitivist) was a guest on coast to coast this evening. He appears to be in favor of the world population ditching all technology and reverting back to a hunter gatherer lifestyle. That seems pretty rediculous except for the part about the freedom from rule you would gain by living this lifestyle.

Let's assume you could flip a switch and everybody in the world would go back to a permanent hunter gatherer lifestyle. If you hit the switch you would start out living in the area you live now but with no technology and no technology would exist ever again. Essentially you would live like the animals around you. Would you hit that switch or keep on living under the thumbs of governments and all the various corps and orgs that control our lives?

Be careful what you ask for. Assuming you live in North America, say good bye to coffee, bananas, and most food stuffs which originated in the old world and would gradually die out from their inability to compete with native plants here. Say hello to the starving times. Until hunter/gatherers settled down to farming in relatively mild climates, they spent most on of their time in commuting, otherwise known as seasonally following the herds. Since the neighbors whose hunting grounds you were commuting through typically deeply resented it, you were literally fighting for dinner. Talk about road rage! Average life expectancy was around 40 with most of your children dying before age five and their mothers not fairing well either. Forget about maintaining literacy which means no more advanced medicines and herbalism limited to what grandma remembered to tell you. All that independence you gained when government ended will be spent trying to find enough to eat by hunting and fighting to keep it from your neighbors. And even ancient tribes had rules which you failed to follow at your peril. One Inuit philosopher opined " unless you are the lead sled dog, the view never changes."

 

[arakboss]

Be careful what you ask for. Assuming you live in North America, say good bye to coffee, bananas, and most food stuffs which originated in the old world and would gradually die out from their inability to compete with native plants here. Say hello to the starving times. Until hunter/gatherers settled down to farming in relatively mild climates, they spent most on of their time in commuting, otherwise known as seasonally following the herds. Since the neighbors whose hunting grounds you were commuting through typically deeply resented it, you were literally fighting for dinner. Talk about road rage! Average life expectancy was around 40 with most of your children dying before age five and their mothers not fairing well either. Forget about maintaining literacy which means no more advanced medicines and herbalism limited to what grandma remembered to tell you. All that independence you gained when government ended will be spent trying to find enough to eat by hunting and fighting to keep it from your neighbors. And even ancient tribes had rules which you failed to follow at your peril. One Inuit philosopher opined " unless you are the lead sled dog, the view never changes."

I am not wishing to go back to hunter gatherer times. My question is can we have the technology and instituions that exist today without the reduction in freedom and autonomy.

Can we have roads with traffic laws?

Can we have internet without spying?

Can we have firearms without gun laws?

Can we have medical care without online medical records and mandated medical requirements?

Can we have utilities without requiring a person to purchase them and not be subject to have their property condemned if we don't purchase them?

Can we work for pay without paying taxes?

Can we live on public lands without fear of being fined or jailed?

Etc, etc, etc

Technology goes hand in hand with a reduction in freedom and autonomy. It's pretty clear that the vast majority of people are fine with the tradeoff.

 

[Xaevian]

I am not wishing to go back to hunter gatherer times. My question is can we have the technology and instituions that exist today without the reduction in freedom and autonomy.

Can we have roads with traffic laws?

Can we have internet without spying?

Can we have firearms without gun laws?

Can we have medical care without online medical records and mandated medical requirements?

Can we have utilities without requiring a person to purchase them and not be subject to have their property condemned if we don't purchase them?

Can we work for pay without paying taxes?

Can we live on public lands without fear of being fined or jailed?

Etc, etc, etc

Technology goes hand in hand with a reduction in freedom and autonomy. It's pretty clear that the vast majority of people are fine with the tradeoff.

There is only so much freedom to go around. The more people that demand it, the less there will be for all.

If only there were 1 person, can true freedom be had, as there would be no conflicts with the freedoms of others; but would that be worth it?

As for slavery and subservience, it is the slaves that created the chains in the first place.

 

[arakboss]

Freedom means different things to different people. What does freedom mean or look like to you? What are you trying to achieve?

This is a blanket answer to your questions. A human should be allowed to participate in the world to the degree that the person wants to. All humans were and continue to be subject to injury and possible death from other humans, animals, nature and now technology. If I want to ride a motorcycle without a helmet or drive a car without a seatbelt on, then I should be able to, without being subject to government fines. The amount of laws and regulations in this country and around the world are mind boggling. A case could be made by someone for each one of these laws/regulations, that they are for your own good, the good of others or the good of the government.

I desire a life where I can reduce my exposure to laws and regulations of the land.

 

[arakboss]

 

[arakboss]

 

[Longwalkhome]

3 pages to get a drift of what folks think freedom is and its difficult for me to put into words because folks have different priorities in what they think makes them free.

I don't know really, I do have an opinion but it's just how I obtained my freedom but the opportunity for everyone to be free is fading quickly.

We are what we are and our station in life is limited by opportunity and our skills and education we gain as we go through life. In our system, working like a slave can set you free if the world doesn't change badly as you go.

In my life you could achieve real freedom if you worked hard and followed the rules and saved money for retirement.

Retirement with debt free money is freedom you can't imagine.

That's long enough but there is a hell of a lot more to say but who needs an old windbag full of words jawing at them.

 

[arakboss]

3 pages to get a drift of what folks think freedom is and its difficult for me to put into words because folks have different priorities in what they think makes them free.

I don't know really, I do have an opinion but it's just how I obtained my freedom but the opportunity for everyone to be free is fading quickly.

We are what we are and our station in life is limited by opportunity and our skills and education we gain as we go through life. In our system, working like a slave can set you free if the world doesn't change badly as you go.

In my life you could achieve real freedom if you worked hard and followed the rules and saved money for retirement.

Retirement with debt free money is freedom you can't imagine.

That's long enough but there is a hell of a lot more to say but who needs an old windbag full of words jawing at them.

I get where you're coming from regarding money providing freedom. I think many equate leisure time with freedom. The freedom I am seeking is freedom from being ruled, laws&regs type of stuff. Having lots of money doesn't allow me to skirt laws and regs unless I buy people off or I'am able to hire really good attys.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Primitive societies had rules , laws , taboos etc...
Even if you were off all by yourself...you would still be subject to the laws of nature , physics etc...

There is no such thing as complete freedom.*
We are all subject to what guides us and shapes us or influences our thoughts , actions and words.
Andy

*Edit to add :
"Complete freedom" means to me at least the total absence of :
Limits
Labels
Feelings
Effects
Consequences
Restrictions
Reactions
Laws
Rules
Bans
Taboos

 

[WAW44]

I get where you're coming from regarding money providing freedom. I think many equate leisure time with freedom. The freedom I am seeking is freedom from being ruled, laws&regs type of stuff. Having lots of money doesn't allow me to skirt laws and regs unless I buy people off or I'am able to hire really good attys.

I'm pretty sure there is a cave or two in Afghanistan right now that can provide close to the technology free lifestyle you seek. They are probably taking applications too...

 

[WAW44]

If I want to ride a motorcycle without a helmet or drive a car without a seatbelt on, then I should be able to, without being subject to government fines.

You can do both, easily, on your private land.

 

[Longwalkhome]

I get where you're coming from regarding money providing freedom. I think many equate leisure time with freedom. The freedom I am seeking is freedom from being ruled, laws&regs type of stuff. Having lots of money doesn't allow me to skirt laws and regs unless I buy people off or I'am able to hire really good attys.

Freedom vs slavery or freedom vs subjugation, in a sense our world isn't free to live in.

In the past before managed decline you could work to set yourself free of debt and thus free of slavery. Much harder to do since inflation is designed to keep the middle class poor and in slavery. Debt free when you retire will bring you freedom from slavery if you saved for it.

Subjugation at this point is manipulated thinking in your mind put there by media. While more laws are added every hour it seems, unless you break them the elite won't sparrow you out to make an example. You are free to work in your garden and grow zucchini as long as you follow the rules.

Subjugation of the entire population physically can't be done because they don't have the manpower. The elite use technology to take the place of bullies and folks go along with it on Facebook and Twitter because of the addiction to technology. You will find a heck of a lot of freedom if you get away from the controllers but it's going to take getting away from the technology spies to get the most freedom.

Too long to read and I apologize but coffee makes me full of words.

 

[arakboss]

Freedom vs slavery or freedom vs subjugation, in a sense our world isn't free to live in.

In the past before managed decline you could work to set yourself free of debt and thus free of slavery. Much harder to do since inflation is designed to keep the middle class poor and in slavery. Debt free when you retire will bring you freedom from slavery if you saved for it.

Subjugation at this point is manipulated thinking in your mind put there by media. While more laws are added every hour it seems, unless you break them the elite won't sparrow you out to make an example. You are free to work in your garden and grow zucchini as long as you follow the rules.

Subjugation of the entire population physically can't be done because they don't have the manpower. The elite use technology to take the place of bullies and folks go along with it on Facebook and Twitter because of the addiction to technology. You will find a heck of a lot of freedom if you get away from the controllers but it's going to take getting away from the technology spies to get the most freedom.

Too long to read and I apologize but coffee makes me full of words.

Slavery sucks but having to have a city inspector come out and give you approval to cut down a tree on your own property does too. If you own a business and the State forces you to require your customers to wear a mask that sucks too. It appears the vast majority have decided the rulers know best and have mostly given up questioning the ever growing list of laws and regs. It doesn't matter which team you vote for because they all love to rule over us.