Would you carry a WW2 era 1911a1?

[Oohrah]

I would never carry or use any gun that was worn to the point that its operation could be considered "faulty".
I feel this is the core of your question.
Would I carry an old, worn out gun.
No, I wouldn't.
However, replacement parts are easily attainable and reasonably priced.
Either myself or a gunsmith could make the gun "fresh" again.
At that point, I would have no qualms about carrying one.

View attachment 614805

Dean

It isn't that difficult to refurbish one. Like you, I bought a mix master of parts from DCM for $20 in the 60s. It was in like condition as you speak of. First replaced the barrel and bushing (not to match spec, but a fairly good fit without having to use a tool to remove the bushing. Right then shot like a different pistol. Polished the barrel/ feed ramp. Lot of things I had the Smith do if it was out of my knowledge, or didn't have the tools for a proper job. Like installing a set of Micro sights and tighten the slide along with the slide contact to lower frame fit, but not so much as to lose reliability. Beaver tail so a Crammer Hammer could be installed. Lighten trigger to 3 lbs, Polish (Not the high gloss but a little less grit as highly polished like Colt's midnight blue is beautiful, but really not durable, My first Python bluing wear from the holster in a couple of years vs a Smith Model 28, a coarser finish showed no blue wear after double that time, so gave it that kind of a Blue job. I doubt if $500 was spent on the project. Carried it both as a back up, and off duty for several years. This was back in the late 60s, early 70s. Semi autos were not in vogue back then. I carry a Glock now, only because it is the required duty weapon, and it's a higher capacity weapon. The 1911 is still my night stand fire arm. However, I have a lot of service miles on the 1911A1, both in the Marines and as a civilian. That part always stays with you, and yes, it is dependable.

 

[BSG 75]

I doubt if $500 was spent on the project. This was back in the late 60s, early 70s.

Or, if today you wanted to carry a full size .45ACP pistol you could get a Glock 21 that carries 13 rounds for $365 Glock 21 gen 4 45acp police trade $30 flat ship - Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com : 830763709

Or, if you insist on a 1911 design you could get a modern Rock Island 1911 with good sights, beavertail, etc. for $430 ARMSCOR Rock Island M1911 Full Size 5" 8rd 51431 - Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com : 823320009

It might have made some sense back in the 1960s-1970s to conceal carry a fixed-up old World War II M1911A1, but in 2019 there are better choices. Especially since modifying a WWII M1911A1 with better sights, beavertail, refinish, etc. would destroy its collector value.

 

[Oohrah]

Or, if today you wanted to carry a full size .45ACP pistol you could get a Glock 21 that carries 13 rounds for $365 Glock 21 gen 4 45acp police trade $30 flat ship - Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com : 830763709

Or, if you insist on a 1911 design you could get a modern Rock Island 1911 with good sights, beavertail, etc. for $430 ARMSCOR Rock Island M1911 Full Size 5" 8rd 51431 - Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com : 823320009

It might have made some sense back in the 1960s-1970s to conceal carry a fixed-up old World War II M1911A1, but in 2019 there are better choices. Especially since modifying a WWII M1911A1 with better sights, beavertail, refinish, etc. would destroy its collector value.

As far as collector value, there wasn't any. Mostly it's condition based on the pistol as whole, and not so much the parts as a whole. This was a Ithaca slide on a Colt lower frame. Interal parts had been replaced a number of times, functioned, but many were noticeable wear that when shown to a friend who shot for the Air Force Team agreed, if I could find the parts, and it was his, it would be replaced. Yes that's true about Glock. However they were not even an idea back then. About the only acceptable semi auto some city police were using was the Smith 59 in 9mm. I can tell you that I did consider the 1911A1 that CMP was offering at 80,000 per year, until they ran out. That was a complete cluster from the start. It took three back grounds. Description of grades ran between 850 to over 1000 dollars per pistol with likely postage and background charges to be added. Nothing pristine as they were set aside for auction. So if you wish to be a collector, be my guest, I'm not interested. That 1911A1, I had already made my mind up if it was in nice shape I wouldn't alter it. If not I would turn it into a safe working/tactical firearm. That I did without regret. I signed a paper that is was not to be sold, after I'm gone...could care less. Most of the less expensive 1911s of today the cost is kept down with things like the frames being poly, to me it really doesn't mean much because so are the Glocks, of which I have a handful I use in my job. However from then on the only game in town, and I had some knowledge pool people that were glad to share information, I could apply the information, the outcome was hundreds of times better than my issue when I was in the Marines, and drew a brand new one. I'm a collector to a point. If it isn't 100% when I get it, I'm not going to chase parts to pay ten to 100 times more for someones stamp on it. I do have an unfired 1903A4 since 1962, still unfired, to me a collector, just like an unfired Colt Python. If they are used military, and armory rebuilt four or five times, or crappy and really need rebuilding (like they are doing with most of the CMP Garands now as most of the graded ones are gone) they don't have a collector value. I've heard that tired story so many times about collector value when I picked up a Springfield 03, or a 1917 Enfield. There were some but not many parts for them, but the rifles were stuck in a barrel upside down for 15 to $20. The rifle barrels were always toast, and stocks some were fixable. I worked for a smith on my days off and learned some of trade while doing grunt work. Slow times I could work on my own things. Those collector things that all that was good were the actions. Some of the wildcats were adopted, but had fun figuring them out (25-06, 6mmRem.) Some may never (25-308, 30 Gibbs) Life was simple but fun! About the only thing back then that was 45 Auto was Colt in the Civilian Target model. My friend from the Air Force had a bunch of them I think the Air Force provided, as long as he kept winning. I'm told that some pretty nice stuff is coming out of the Philippines and was an interesting read on their 22 Center fire out of their 1911. They have come a long way. Maybe a reason why a sudden interest for some of the American gun manufacturing to also get back into the 1911 craze? From a few to many, and all different price ranges.

 

[DeanMk]

...About the only acceptable semi auto some city police were using was the Smith 59 in 9mm.

Model 59 Smith...that was Starksky's gun.
Hutch used a 6" Colt Python.
...and they both rode around in a mid-70's Gran Torino.

Man I miss the '70's sometimes.


Dean

 

[Oohrah]

Law enforcement was snail slow to switch over from wheel guns to semi autos. They didn't seem to mind off duty or as a back up. Kind of like the FBI is now. bubblegum about being under gunned, and go to a not bad caliber with better capacity, but maybe too hard to tame? Now back to 9mm again, as are some departments. Over all they have made some great improvements once they abandoned ball ammo for carry, but only hits in the vital area count! I'll likely get knocked for saying it, but without some work being done on most of the 1911A1 that are not newly manufactured, the military ones, will need some work done on them. They don't have to be so loose to operate under all condition's the military uses like mud, sand, and water, but reasonable tight enough for accuracy. However, I have had new issues that did just fine. Most of those released that I have seen have been pretty weary with more than a few rounds down range. They aren't magic and you have to be able to keep your rounds in that same vitals area no matter what firearm you decide to use. To the Glock user in 45ACP heck yeah, if the gun fits, use it! My hands need longer fingers to find comfort, but I have been using Glocks for street guns, and none better for tactics I find. The 1911 remains an important house protector.

 

[Brownsalamander]

So, similar to this topic, I just won an auction for a 100% "Ithaca" 1911a1. The price was a little over 1300. However he sent an email sincerely apologizing for accidental misrepresentation. Turns out the gun has an Ithaca slide with a Remington Rand frame. He offered to lower the price down to 1000 shipped. Is this still a decent deal? I would definitely shoot it, but would like to, if I absolutely have to be able to at least sell it at cost down the road. Because of the mistake, he also said I could back out of the auction no harm no fail. I am leaning more towards going through with it. What are you guys thoughts?

Should I

Also, would restoring it take value away?

 

[jbett98]

is there an arsenal rebuild stamp on the frame?

 

[DeanMk]

Law enforcement was snail slow to switch over from wheel guns to semi autos. They didn't seem to mind off duty or as a back up. Kind of like the FBI is now. bubblegum about being under gunned, and go to a not bad caliber with better capacity, but maybe too hard to tame? Now back to 9mm again, as are some departments. Over all they have made some great improvements once they abandoned ball ammo for carry, but only hits in the vital area count! I'll likely get knocked for saying it, but without some work being done on most of the 1911A1 that are not newly manufactured, the military ones, will need some work done on them. They don't have to be so loose to operate under all condition's the military uses like mud, sand, and water, but reasonable tight enough for accuracy. However, I have had new issues that did just fine. Most of those released that I have seen have been pretty weary with more than a few rounds down range. They aren't magic and you have to be able to keep your rounds in that same vitals area no matter what firearm you decide to use. To the Glock user in 45ACP heck yeah, if the gun fits, use it! My hands need longer fingers to find comfort, but I have been using Glocks for street guns, and none better for tactics I find. The 1911 remains an important house protector.

What really woke law enforcement up was the shootout in Hollywood (North Hollywood, right?)
Where two gunmen held off, what was it, 3 entire police departments?
Cops new they needed to get with the program after that fiasco.

Dean

 

[Brownsalamander]

is there an arsenal rebuild stamp on the frame?

I don't see anything (there are a couple other pics more close up), there's nothing that has RIA or AA on it- at least that I can see. The seller said the finish looks pretty well matched though, that's a good sign right?

 

[BSG 75]

Also, would restoring it take value away?

You first have to decide what it is you want. Do you want something that is a collectable that you can shoot from time to time? Then that one with the mismatched slide is not a good choice because its collector value is significantly reduced. It is just a "shooter". But if you just want a USGI-style "shooter" then you might as well get a new USGI clone by Springfield Armory or others with better metallurgy for a fraction of the price.

If you want a collectable don't get that one. If you want a shooter don't get that one.

And yes "restoring" one in original condition - that one isn't because the slide is mismatched - lowers the collector value.

 

[Oohrah]

So, similar to this topic, I just won an auction for a 100% "Ithaca" 1911a1. The price was a little over 1300. However he sent an email sincerely apologizing for accidental misrepresentation. Turns out the gun has an Ithaca slide with a Remington Rand frame. He offered to lower the price down to 1000 shipped. Is this still a decent deal? I would definitely shoot it, but would like to, if I absolutely have to be able to at least sell it at cost down the road. Because of the mistake, he also said I could back out of the auction no harm no fail. I am leaning more towards going through with it. What are you guys thoughts?

Should I

Also, would restoring it take value away?

That is about what the CMP was going for on their better grade choices. Not having seen them, I can only go by their verbal description. I would suspect like the one I drew many years ago that it had a good many rounds through that Remington Rand lower and the armory replaced the slide and worn parts at least once, and could have had a number of visits to be in the condition it is in. Left as it, it has that value due to the fact that is what the surplus GI armory go for. I know that those CMP require three background checks and a number of different things to go through including I think maybe the mailing that might be time limited (you have to be available to sign for it). All those things add up. I would if it were me and you go through with the deal, ask for a statement of origin especially if it was one of those first releases. Those releases were to be a certain amount each year, but it looks like such a cluster, I doubt if the next amount is going to be released any time soon. It isn't the CMP but restrictions the government has placed on them. I'm wondering if it ends up with no further releases. The one you are pondering on could end up being a collector even if not in the greatest condition. It was a game of chance. Like you, I think I would play it out. Nothing to lose on it. My order for a 1911A1 was about 1962 under DCM then, and the NRA seemed to be pulling the strings back then. Things ran very smooth back then, and prices were not inflated. You were allowed one of any single firearm, and not for resale. So my 1911A1 was the very first that wasn't excellent or like new. Well worn, but functioned and like other firearms there wasn't a choice of condition. It was luck of the draw. The cost of the pistol was $20 delivered to the door. Mine was an Ithaca Slide and a Colt lower. Must be a trend when they get worn. Good luck to you, what ever you decide!

 

[Brownsalamander]

You first have to decide what it is you want. Do you want something that is a collectable that you can shoot from time to time? Then that one with the mismatched slide is not a good choice because its collector value is significantly reduced. It is just a "shooter". But if you just want a USGI-style "shooter" then you might as well get a new USGI clone by Springfield Armory or others with better metallurgy for a fraction of the price.

If you want a collectable don't get that one. If you want a shooter don't get that one.

And yes "restoring" one in original condition - that one isn't because the slide is mismatched - lowers the collector value.

I'm terms of reliability, would this one I could go forward with potentially be more reliable than the Springfield? I owned a Springfield GI model awhile back (2009ish) and was absolutely disappointed with the build quality and reliability. Is there a certain era of Springfield GI worth while or I should stay away from?

I'm still on the fence at this moment. IF I get it, I would absolutely invest in it getting refurbished, and shoot it whenever possible. It would be neat having a reliable 1943 era 1911a1 to be able to use often without worry. I suppose damn the resale value at that point. As for metallurgy..... that's a good point, how much does it matter though? I'm not trying to sound ignorant with that questions... but, I am ignorant when it comes to metallurgy. Thanks.

 

[jbett98]

I wouldn't buy a bait & switch firearm from that guy, even if he mistakenly misrepresented the pistol online, somebody must have called him out on it and he should have pulled the auction ad. What if there's even more issues that are hidden. This doesn't pass the smell test in my book.

 

[BSG 75]

I'm terms of reliability, would this one I could go forward with potentially be more reliable than the Springfield? I owned a Springfield GI model awhile back (2009ish) and was absolutely disappointed with the build quality and reliability. Is there a certain era of Springfield GI worth while or I should stay away from?

I only used Springfield Armory as an example. If you don't like them look at Auto Ordnance

Auto Ordnance 1911A1 Pistol - Auto-Ordnance | Original manufacturer of the world famous "Tommy Gun"

OVERVIEW: AUTO-ORDNANCE 1911A1 PISTOL OVERVIEW: AUTO-ORDNANCE 1911A1 PISTOL The Auto-Ordnance 1911A1 series incorporates GI specs, and features a matte black finished frame, barrel, and slide. The precision manufactured, carbon steel slide, sear, and disconnector are heat treated properly for...

www.auto-ordnance.com

Cimarron

1911 Semi Automatic .45 ACP, 5

The 1911 is a model favored by gun enthusiasts of many varieties. It was the standard issue side arm for the U.S. Armed Forces from 1911 to 1986. The Cimarron 1911 is our first semi-automatic offering. This firearm is the next logical step for Cimarron; as this was the next generation of...

www.cimarron-firearms.com

or Rock Island

GI Series | Rock Island Armory | Armscor International, Inc

GI series provides a wide range of options in caliber, finish & size. One of our most versatile and durable options, plus a good price for any 1911 buyer.

armscor.com

If you want a collectable pay a few hundred dollars more and get one that is right: right slide, right grips, right hammer, right barrel, right mainspring housing, and original finish. If you just want a GI-style shooter save several hundred dollars and get one of the new ones listed above. But I wouldn't pay $1000 for that mixmaster and then pour more money into it. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Brownsalamander]

I only used Springfield Armory as an example. If you don't like them look at Auto Ordnance

Auto Ordnance 1911A1 Pistol - Auto-Ordnance | Original manufacturer of the world famous "Tommy Gun"

OVERVIEW: AUTO-ORDNANCE 1911A1 PISTOL OVERVIEW: AUTO-ORDNANCE 1911A1 PISTOL The Auto-Ordnance 1911A1 series incorporates GI specs, and features a matte black finished frame, barrel, and slide. The precision manufactured, carbon steel slide, sear, and disconnector are heat treated properly for...

www.auto-ordnance.com

Cimarron

1911 Semi Automatic .45 ACP, 5

The 1911 is a model favored by gun enthusiasts of many varieties. It was the standard issue side arm for the U.S. Armed Forces from 1911 to 1986. The Cimarron 1911 is our first semi-automatic offering. This firearm is the next logical step for Cimarron; as this was the next generation of...

www.cimarron-firearms.com

or Rock Island

GI Series | Rock Island Armory | Armscor International, Inc

GI series provides a wide range of options in caliber, finish & size. One of our most versatile and durable options, plus a good price for any 1911 buyer.

armscor.com

If you want a collectable pay a few hundred dollars more and get one that is right: right slide, right grips, right hammer, right barrel, right mainspring housing, and original finish. If you just want a GI-style shooter save several hundred dollars and get one of the new ones listed above. But I wouldn't pay $1000 for that mixmaster and then pour more money into it. It just doesn't make sense.

Good advice. I appreciate it. I'll let him know I'm passing and I'll leep searching.

 

[Brownsalamander]

I wouldn't buy a bait & switch firearm from that guy, even if he mistakenly misrepresented the pistol online, somebody must have called him out on it and he should have pulled the auction ad. What if there's even more issues that are hidden. This doesn't pass the smell test in my book.

Good point, and also good advice. I will be passing on this 1911 and keeping my search on

 

[raftman]

Gonna go with the minority view and say no... and for several reasons.

1. (This won't apply to most, but is a big deal to me) I'm left-handed and the WW2 era 1911's were not designed with southpaws in mind as far as placement of the safety and mag release.

2. I prefer DAO or DA/SA without a safety over cocked and locked carry.

3. Size and weight are far excessive relative to capacity. If I wanted to commit to something of that size and weight, may as well get with something with a higher capacity. But...

4. I probably wouldn't commit to carrying something of that size and weight. They say best carry gun is the gun you'll carry and we all know a .380 in the pocket is infinitely better than something bigger left in the safe.

5. I'd prefer to carry something with zero historic value/interest.

 

[aksu747]

Gonna go with the minority view and say no... and for several reasons.

"1. (This won't apply to most, but is a big deal to me) I'm left-handed and the WW2 era 1911's were not designed with southpaws in mind as far as placement of the safety and mag release."
I've never had a problem using the 1911 series pistols with my left hand. This is mostly a training issue, I practice with all me handguns with both hands in case one is injured and I can't use it for some reason.

"2. I prefer DAO or DA/SA without a safety over cocked and locked carry."
If you train and familiarize yourself with the 1911 series safeties it is automatic to sweep the safety off during the draw,this is extremely fast.
I had to draw a pistol once, I was not half as experienced with it as I was a 1911,(this one had a slide mounted safety) but in my time of need I was able to flick the safety off, thankfully I did not have to shoot and I am thankful to God for protecting me that night in multiple ways and not having to shoot.

"3. Size and weight are far excessive relative to capacity. If I wanted to commit to something of that size and weight, may as well get with something with a higher capacity. But..."
If you use a good quality leather holster it is comfortable to carry a gun of that size and weight no problem, sure lighter is nice for carry but if you don't shoot a lighter gun as well as you do the heavier one does it really matter? I'd rather be a little more accurate with a heavier gun, that said I do have a small metal framed .380 for when I don't feel like carrying as much bulk.

 

[DeanMk]

With enough training, you can adapt to just about anything.
I think the problem here lies in just how willing one is to train that much to adapt to any given firearm.
I believe most people just aren't willing enough to train that intensely.
Its easier to sell that weapon and get something else that's more intuitively adaptable.
I feel this is part of the charm of "slick side" guns. It's basically a point-and-shoot game at that point.

Dean

 

[raftman]

Training can overcome all sorts of (sometimes perceived) disadvantages, that's true... but why not just get a gun that doesn't have them to begin with? Doesn't your training go a bit further if you don't spend part of it trying to program yourself to work around things that just get in the way of you being effective?