Washington Would pistol frame be transferred as "Other" firearm, handgun or rifle in WA State?

[Lilhigbee]

Try this; think of the "Rifle", "Pistol", "Other" as the gender of the receiver. Once the manufacturer has assigned it a gender, that's what it is, no matter what clothes it wears or what augmentation it's had. ATF doesn't care that you can't tell what it is in a bar at 1:00am, you had better be right when you transfer it. Many of them are transferred incorrectly without punishment because ATF doesn't bother to check the birth records of every receiver at every transaction. You can surgically change the gender with paperwork through ATF, but not by transferring it incorrectly.
@Sporting Systems please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.

 

[arakboss]

I am finding that almost every shop/FFL that I talk to has a different understanding of current laws. It's frustrating.

I checked with my favorite FFL here in Oregon this morning and he said he would transfer a frame as an "other" firearm. If you read the advice from the ATF letter it really doesn't suggest any other way. It is super frustrating that different FFLs have such different interpretations. But I blame the ATF for a lot of the confusion.

 

[Sporting Systems]

Try this; think of the "Rifle", "Pistol", "Other" as the gender of the receiver. Once the manufacturer has assigned it a gender, that's what it is, no matter what clothes it wears or what augmentation it's had. ATF doesn't care that you can't tell what it is in a bar at 1:00am, you had better be right when you transfer it. Many of them are transferred incorrectly without punishment because ATF doesn't bother to check the birth records of every receiver at every transaction. You can surgically change the gender with paperwork through ATF, but not by transferring it incorrectly.
@Sporting Systems please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.

NAILED IT.

 

[Sporting Systems]

I checked with my favorite FFL here in Oregon this morning and he said he would transfer a frame as an "other" firearm. If you read the advice from the ATF letter it really doesn't suggest any other way. It is super frustrating that different FFLs have such different interpretations.

On a transfer, we only have the information provided by the seller. You tell me its a frame, then its a frame. The ATF has a record of what that serial number was originally manufactured as, but that information is NOT provided on the subsequent NICS checks, they are checking the person not the item. Thus, its kind of gets lost in the system.

Now if you tell me me, you separated the items and transferring a frame in store and the upper in the parking lot, I won't process that transfer.

 

[arakboss]

Try this; think of the "Rifle", "Pistol", "Other" as the gender of the receiver. Once the manufacturer has assigned it a gender, that's what it is, no matter what clothes it wears or what augmentation it's had. ATF doesn't care that you can't tell what it is in a bar at 1:00am, you had better be right when you transfer it. Many of them are transferred incorrectly without punishment because ATF doesn't bother to check the birth records of every receiver at every transaction. You can surgically change the gender with paperwork through ATF, but not by transferring it incorrectly.
@Sporting Systems please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.

That makes sense except for the FFL has no way to know what configurations the frame or receiver might have been made in to. You can legally change a pistol or "other" firearm in to a rifle, correct? So if I change a pistol or an "other" firearm in to a rifle and take it to my FFL for a transfer to an 18 year old person in Oregon, he is going to most likely transfer it as a rifle. Based on your logic that means my FFL just transferred a pistol or "other" firearm that looks like a rifle to an 18 year person. Seems like a big no no to me. If you read the ATF's advice on transferring a frame or receiver as an "other" firearm, it doesn't say unless that receiver or frame was previously configured in to another type of firearm.

 

[ActionHero1980]

On a transfer, we only have the information provided by the seller. You tell me its a frame, then its a frame. The ATF has a record of what that serial number was originally manufactured as, but that information is NOT provided on the subsequent NICS checks, they are checking the person not the item. Thus, its kind of gets lost in the system.

Now if you tell me me, you separated the items and transferring a frame in store and the upper in the parking lot, I won't process that transfer.

So to be clear, a NEW factory Glock frame transfers as a receiver, correct? No 1639 HIPPA waivers, etc.? Does it matter if the frame is stripped or complete.
I would like to buy one and this thread is making me uncomfortable.

 

[arakboss]

On a transfer, we only have the information provided by the seller. You tell me its a frame, then its a frame. The ATF has a record of what that serial number was originally manufactured as, but that information is NOT provided on the subsequent NICS checks, they are checking the person not the item. Thus, its kind of gets lost in the system.

Now if you tell me me, you separated the items and transferring a frame in store and the upper in the parking lot, I won't process that transfer.

Exactly my point. The rules on changing a firearms configuration should not fall the FFL to detemine for transfer purposes. For example, I buy an AR15 rifle and sell it to somebody who later converts it in to a pistol, he is breaking the rules/law. But if that person brings that pistol in to an FFL to have the pistol transferred to another person. The FFL is going to transfer firearm as a pistol because that's the configuration it is in at the FFL. The FFL would have no way of knowing the firearm was previously a rifle unless the customer volunteered that information.

 

[arakboss]

So to be clear, a NEW factory Glock frame transfers as a receiver, correct? No 1639 HIPPA waivers, etc.? Does it matter if the frame is stripped or complete.
I would like to buy one and this thread is making me uncomfortable.

It will depend on the FFL. Some will transfer it as "other" (which would allow you to avoid the 1639 BS) and some will transfer (improperly in my view) as a handgun. I would check with the sender of the frame and the FFL you plan on having it shipped to.

 

[arakboss]

So to be clear, a NEW factory Glock frame transfers as a receiver, correct? No 1639 HIPPA waivers, etc.? Does it matter if the frame is stripped or complete.
I would like to buy one and this thread is making me uncomfortable.

I just spoke with a gentleman at this outfit in CA. Glock

He said their Glock frames are entered in their log book under the frame/receiver classification. So if you bought from them and found a WA FFL who would transfer them that way you can avoid the 1639 hassle. But get it done before July 1st or you might be out of luck avoiding the 1639 BS.

 

[Sporting Systems]

I just spoke with a gentleman at this outfit in CA. Glock

He said their Glock frames are entered in their log book under the frame/receiver classification. So if you bought from them and found a WA FFL who would transfer them that way you can avoid the 1639 hassle. But get it done before July 1st or you might be out of luck avoiding the 1639 BS.

Frames and receivers have always been outside the 1639 requirements. There is no discretion, just the law and facts on that one.

 

[arakboss]

Try this; think of the "Rifle", "Pistol", "Other" as the gender of the receiver. Once the manufacturer has assigned it a gender, that's what it is, no matter what clothes it wears or what augmentation it's had. ATF doesn't care that you can't tell what it is in a bar at 1:00am, you had better be right when you transfer it. Many of them are transferred incorrectly without punishment because ATF doesn't bother to check the birth records of every receiver at every transaction. You can surgically change the gender with paperwork through ATF, but not by transferring it incorrectly.
@Sporting Systems please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.

If you are correct about "other" firearms always being "other" firearms does that mean an AR rifle built from "other" firearms (lower receiver) will never be a rifle?

 

[Alexx1401]

I am finding that almost every shop/FFL that I talk to has a different understanding of current laws. It's frustrating.

Sadly this is because in this state they just passed some new laws that were VERY poorly written. Many shops are leery of doing something they even think may cause issues.

 

[Lilhigbee]

If you are correct about "other" firearms always being "other" firearms does that mean an AR rifle built from "other" firearms (lower receiver) will never be a rifle?

As far as ATF is concerned, and for transfers, yes it will always be an "other".
Again I defer to @Sporting Systems for correction if necessary.

 

[Legion489]

OK, this is the sort of stupidity that drives me crazy. WHY are you asking here?! A simple letter or call to the local BATF office will solve the problem, give you an legal opinion that actually (well, OK, might) mean something and (should) be right. When confronted with the law, why not go to the horse's mouth (or which ever part of the horse has the power to inflict the law) and ask them?

OK, read the quote above, and having talked to the BATF (dealer), if it ORIGINALLY was a handgun (Glocks are ALL handguns from the factory), it is ALWAYS a handgun frame! Period.You can legally make a handgun into a rifle (Contender pistol any one?!), and back again, BUT! you can NOT convert a rifle into a handgun. Period. Yes, you CAN (by federal law) take a, in this case, factory Contender handgun (or Glock handgun, or a 1911, or a...) and make a rifle out of it, AND BACK, BUT, you can NOT take a factory Contender (or Rem, Winchester, Savage, etc.) RIFLE and make a handgun out of it. Confusing but true.

The AR upper is not a firearm, under federal law, so why is the upper even mentioned here? The AR LOWER, if it was made into a rifle, is ALWAYS a rifle. If the AR LOWER is just a lower and not built into a rifle or a handgun, but comes with a rifle upper, it is a rifle, if it comes with a handgun upper, it is a handgun.

 

[Member 18201]

Based on this info, I would think most frames, glock or otherwise should be transferred as "Other" firearms:

Question 16.
Type of Firearm(s): "Other" refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms, including silencers. If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, frames and receivers are still "firearms" by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(B). Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or rifle," it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21, nor can these firearms be transferred to anyone who is not a resident of the State where the transfer is to take place. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not "pistols or revolvers" under Section 923(g)(3)(A).

Question 16 would be " other " - correct.

Question 27 would be "frame" or "receiver".

 

[arakboss]

As far as ATF is concerned, and for transfers, yes it will always be an "other".
Again I defer to @Sporting Systems for correction if necessary.

This is a concern as I just recently sold a rifle of mine (or should I say "other") to somebody and the FFL transferred it as a rifle. It started out as a receiver ("other") but it had a butt stock and 16inch barrel attached when I brought it to the FFL. He told the person he was transferring it to that it had to be transferred as a rifle. Based on what you believe the FFL should have transferred it as a reciever ("other") since that is how it begin life. Based on my personal experiences, the FFLs I have dealt with (right or wrong) have always transferred the firearms based on the configuration of the firearm that was being transferred to or from me.

 

[Sporting Systems]

This is a concern as I just recently sold a rifle of mine (or should I say "other") to somebody and the FFL transferred it as a rifle. It started out as a receiver ("other") but it had a butt stock and 16inch barrel attached when I brought it to the FFL. He told the person he was transferring it to that it had to be transferred as a rifle. Based on what you believe the FFL should have transferred it as a reciever ("other") since that is how it begin life. Based on my personal experiences, the FFLs I have dealt with (right or wrong) have always transferred the firearms based on the configuration of the firearm that was being transferred to or from me.

The transfer would be based on what the dealer was presented at time of transfer. You brought in a rifle, and a rifle it would be transferred as.

Caveat here is an SBR. You cannot disassemble that, sell the lower and then the new buyer reassemble with the short barrel. When the buyer applies for the tax stamp, that lower and serial number would come back as a registered SBR and then you would have ATF knocking on both buyer and seller doorS, probably at the exact same time.

 

[bikemutt]

Caveat here is an SBR. You cannot disassemble that, sell the lower and then the new buyer reassemble with the short barrel. When the buyer applies for the tax stamp, that lower and serial number would come back as a registered SBR and then you would have ATF knocking on both buyer and seller doorS, probably at the exact same time.

Exactly right. My understanding is the item must first be removed from the NFA registry. Once that has been approved, it's just another lower.

On the other hand, I believe the SBR can be sold as a lower, never mind NFA registry. The new owner should be fine as long as the lower is never assembled into an SBR. Not sure what dealer would handle that transfer

 

[Sporting Systems]

Exactly right. My understanding is the item must first be removed from the NFA registry. Once that has been approved, it's just another lower.

On the other hand, I believe the SBR can be sold as a lower, never mind NFA registry. The new owner should be fine as long as the lower is never assembled into an SBR. Not sure what dealer would handle that transfer

No, it cannot. The lower make, model and serial number are registered in the NFA. It would have to be deactivated in NFA before it could be transferred without a form 4.

 

[arakboss]

OK, this is the sort of stupidity that drives me crazy. WHY are you asking here?! A simple letter or call to the local BATF office will solve the problem, give you an legal opinion that actually (well, OK, might) mean something and (should) be right. When confronted with the law, why not go to the horse's mouth (or which ever part of the horse has the power to inflict the law) and ask them?

OK, read the quote above, and having talked to the BATF (dealer), if it ORIGINALLY was a handgun (Glocks are ALL handguns from the factory), it is ALWAYS a handgun frame! Period.You can legally make a handgun into a rifle (Contender pistol any one?!), and back again, BUT! you can NOT convert a rifle into a handgun. Period. Yes, you CAN (by federal law) take a, in this case, factory Contender handgun (or Glock handgun, or a 1911, or a...) and make a rifle out of it, AND BACK, BUT, you can NOT take a factory Contender (or Rem, Winchester, Savage, etc.) RIFLE and make a handgun out of it. Confusing but true.

The AR upper is not a firearm, under federal law, so why is the upper even mentioned here? The AR LOWER, if it was made into a rifle, is ALWAYS a rifle. If the AR LOWER is just a lower and not built into a rifle or a handgun, but comes with a rifle upper, it is a rifle, if it comes with a handgun upper, it is a handgun.

Stupidity is a little harsh. I will avoid calling the ATF whenever possible. There is a lot of knowledge and experiences that members here can share with each other. I think it's clear we don't all agree on whether firearms can legally be changed from one type to another or whether they are doomed to stay the "gender" they were born as. I have provided examples of where firearms have been changed and transferred under a different classification as have others here in this thread (including you in your own reply). I am sorry this type of discussion drives you crazy. The take away for me is that an FFL is going to transfer a firearm based on the configuration as it is presented to him, not based on "gender" from birth. If I bring in a Glock with butt stock and 16inch barrel it's going to be transferred as a rifle. If I separate my factory built AR15 rifle lower receiver and try to have it transferred as a rifle to an 18 year old, the FFL will refuse to do it because to them it's a receiver "other" firearm. If somebody brings in a stripped frame or receiver that was previously built as a rifle or pistol it will most likely be transferred as a frame/receiver ("other") since a frame or receiver is what is being presented to the FFL.

That was my original question I was trying to get answered and I think it was answered by @Sporting Systems