Poll: Worth it?

[SparksFly]

Okay, long story short I have been looking into getting my first rifle and know that I want to get a Remington 700 mainly for the accuracy and reliability. I thought long and hard about this but wasn't sure if it would be worth it so am asking for everyone's sage advice. I originally had the .30-06 in mind, but after doing some long range shooting I got bitten by the bug and am now thinking a bit more carefully about calibers, mainly the .30-06 and the 7mm Remington Magnum. One one hand, I like the availability of .30-06 ammunition, but since I don't plan on hunting in areas where I would need to fly on a plane to get there until I am well out of college so a good 10 years this doesn't matter a whole lot, yet. I also like the all around flexibility of the cartridge for hunting all types of game and the price of the ammo. Flip side, I hope to do some fairly long range shooting of about 1400+ yards and this am not a huge fan of the 3000+ inches of drop and the some 200+ MOA needed to reach out that far with the 06. On the other hand, I like the power of the 7mm Rem Mag, the ability to knock down everything in North America and beyond (.30-06 can too), but also the range of the cartridge and the 1100 or so inches of drop and 70 +/- at 1400 yards. After I recover from the cost of the gun and accessories I will be getting, I hope to get into reloading to be able to fine tune the accuracy of the rifle and to "save" some money on ammo. I basically want to know, is it worth the extra $10 a box to get the 7mm?

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[erslll]

I voted yes for 7mm but I maybe a little tilted since I am currently working on a 700 Long Range 7mm project. I am shooting the Hornady ELD-X at around 2980 fps. I am not sure where you got your numbers for drop but, just running a quick JBM calculation on my load, I am only at about 645"/44 MOA at 1400 yards.

 

[SparksFly]

I voted yes for 7mm but I maybe a little tilted since I am currently working on a 700 Long Range 7mm project. I am shooting the Hornady ELD-X at around 2980 fps. I am not sure where you got your numbers for drop but, just running a quick JBM calculation on my load, I am only at about 645"/44 MOA at 1400 yards.

My numbers were from a basic ballistic calculator from Federal using their Fusion ammo with 170-175 grain projectile.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I basically want to know, is it worth the extra $10 a box to get the 7mm?

Do you handload? No one that shoots to "1400 yards" doesn't and a $10 a box difference? That ain't gonna happen with "1400 yard" ammo. Just pick/find the most expensive factory ammo you can find online (5$+/per shot?) and it's not nearly as "good" as the best handload.
To put it another way, even if you handload, you're looking at some serious money just for the projectiles. We're not comparing Remington Cor-Lokt walmart ammo here..

 

[KKG]

My answer to your question was Maybe because you didn't State what you are looking to use it for. The 7mm has certain value as a higher velocity cartridge than say an '06 or .308 but in general it doesn't have the heavier bullets of the .30 calibers. So my answer is Maybe.

 

[rcnpthfndr]

I will add more after I teach this morning.

you will never hit anything consistently nor accurately at that distance with a bone stock R700. if you could there would be no market for custom purpose built rifles

Certaindeaf is speaking the truth.

 

[SparksFly]

Do you handload? No one that shoots to "1400 yards" doesn't and a $10 a box difference? That ain't gonna happen with "1400 yard" ammo. Just pick/find the most expensive factory ammo you can find online (5$+/per shot?) and it's not nearly as "good" as the best handload.
To put it another way, even if you handload, you're looking at some serious money just for the projectiles. We're not comparing Remington Cor-Lokt walmart ammo here..

Yup, it would be handloading. The current bullet companies I am looking at are Barnes and Nosler. I would be practicing for a while with regular ammo out to maybe 500 yards to break the gun in and to get used to the gun and the scope turret system. Then it would be handloading for sure. I would rather spend a $600 for a press and all the necessary tools and then quality bullets and powder than spend $70+ for a quality box of high end ammo. I also want to be able to customize ammunition for my specific needs then try to make box ammo do.

 

[erslll]

My numbers were from a basic ballistic calculator from Federal using their Fusion ammo with 170-175 grain projectile.

Sorry, I left out that my info is for the 175 gr ELD-X so that is a big difference using basically the same weight bullet.

Yes, you can shoot heavier bullets in the .30 calibers but that doesn't necessarily make them better for long range. Ballistic coefficient seems more important to me and there are some pretty slippery .284 caliber bullets out there now. Another thing to consider is a heavy .30 cal bullet is also going to mean more recoil.

Reloading will be a necessity (which I know you are already planning for) because you are going to want to be shooting a lot more.

 

[SparksFly]

I will add more after I teach this morning.

you will never hit anything consistently nor accurately at that distance with a bone stock R700. if you could there would be no market for custom purpose built rifles

Certaindeaf is speaking the truth.

It would most certainly not be stock. I would pretty much tear down the rifle and rebuild it. New trigger, new stock, the whole shebang.
So far these are what I have decided to change along the course of a few years.
Basics:
Hawke sidewinder 6-24x56 SR Pro with 1/8th turrets
Or
Vortex Viper HST 6-24x50
Timney 2-Stage trigger
McMillian A5 stock or Magpul Hunter stock
Glass bedded
Harris bipod

Later:
Hart Barrel

Much MUCH later I am also looking at getting a Nightforce B.E.A.S.T. Scope

 

[erslll]

It would most certainly not be stock. I would pretty much tear down the rifle and rebuild it. New trigger, new stock, the whole shebang.
So far these are what I have decided to change along the course of a few years.
Basics:
Hawke sidewinder 6-24x56 SR Pro with 1/8th turrets
Or
Vortex Viper HST 6-24x50
Timney 2-Stage trigger
McMillian A5 stock or Magpul Hunter stock
Glass bedded
Harris bipod

Later:
Hart Barrel

Much MUCH later I am also looking at getting a Nightforce B.E.A.S.T. Scope

Go with the Vortex. I don't know anything about the Hawke but you won't like the 1/8th turrets if you are shooting long range.

 

[SparksFly]

Sorry, I left out that my info is for the 175 gr ELD-X so that is a big difference using basically the same weight bullet.

Yes, you can shoot heavier bullets in the .30 calibers but that doesn't necessarily make them better for long range. Ballistic coefficient seems more important to me and there are some pretty slippery .284 caliber bullets out there now. Another thing to consider is a heavy .30 cal bullet is also going to mean more recoil.

Reloading will be a necessity (which I know you are already planning for) because you are going to want to be shooting a lot more.

For 7mm the bullets I am looking at are Barnes 150gr. Tipped triple-shot X boat tails, Barnes 145gr. Long-Range X boat tails, and Nosler 150gr. Ballistic-tipped spitzers. Powders I will be testing after I have the rifle, brass I will be reusing.

Go with the Vortex. I don't know anything about the Hawke but you won't like the 1/8th turrets if you are shooting long range.

The turrets are an extra so I could ditch them at any time. Since I would be aiming to get as precise as possible and both the Hawke and the Vortex have similar abilities in vertical MOA adjustments, would 1/4 or 1/8 turrets be better when aiming for precision both at long range and closer targets?

 

[Crohnos01]

I voted "yes" , but I haven't bought factory ammo in years. You can get some really sweet loads for the 7mm with 140 and 150 grain bullets handloading. I have taken an antelope at 800 yards with this rifle.... I have an 06 also I hunted with and loaded for, but for all around shooting, the 7mm is my goto platform.

 

[ron]

For 1400 yard long range shooting a heavy barrel, custom stock, custom scope, special purpose
caliber. A hunting rifle you are going to pack around are 2 different rifles.
You are not going to do well with a hunting rifle at 1000 yards or more. Once a bullet
goes subsonic it tumbles and accuracy is gone. Low drag or high "BC" bullets are required. A 30 cal.
175 Sierra Matchking with a muzzle velocity of 2700 FPS will be supersonic out to 1000 yards.
That is a MAX load in an 30/06. You want to learn about long range shooting go to a 1000 yard match
at DRRC. Talk with competitors and see what is working for them. You just missed the Leupold Cup
match at DRRC. http://www.douglasridge.org/leupold_cup.pdf

 

[erslll]

For 7mm the bullets I am looking at are Barnes 150gr. Tipped triple-shot X boat tails, Barnes 145gr. Long-Range X boat tails, and Nosler 150gr. Ballistic-tipped spitzers. Powders I will be testing after I have the rifle, brass I will be reusing.

The turrets are an extra so I could ditch them at any time. Since I would be aiming to get as precise as possible and both the Hawke and the Vortex have similar abilities in vertical MOA adjustments, would 1/4 or 1/8 turrets be better when aiming for precision both at long range and closer targets?

1/8 MOA turrets are more for bench rest style shooters, IMHO. You are going to get real tired of them if you have to adjust 40 MOA.

As far as bullets, you should be looking at ballistic coefficient. I'm sure the bullets you mentioned are fine but start comparing there BC to the heavier 7mm bullets. Then run some numbers through a ballistic calculator and see what the difference really is.

I agree with a previous post that it is going to be pretty hard to have a gun that you hunt with and shoot long range. Possible but it will be a bit heavy. My 7mm that I am currently working on is in the 12-13 lb range. I have a couple of other rifles that I shoot at extended ranges that are 15 lbs.

 

[SparksFly]

For 1400 yard long range shooting a heavy barrel, custom stock, custom scope, special purpose
caliber. A hunting rifle you are going to pack around are 2 different rifles.
You are not going to do well with a hunting rifle at 1000 yards or more. Once a bullet
goes subsonic it tumbles and accuracy is gone. Low drag or high "BC" bullets are required. A 30 cal.
175 Sierra Matchking with a muzzle velocity of 2700 FPS will be supersonic out to 1000 yards.
That is a MAX load in an 30/06. You want to learn about long range shooting go to a 1000 yard match
at DRRC. Talk with competitors and see what is working for them. You just missed the Leupold Cup
match at DRRC. http://www.douglasridge.org/leupold_cup.pdf

Gotcha. One thing I think I should clarify is that I don't plan on entering competitions and all the changes I put down are not permanent, just ideas. I plan on getting the rifle and then shooting and finding out what I like and what I want to change. This rifle would mainly be a gun to hunt with but that if I wanted to do some long range shooting for fun I would be able to. I am also looking at other items and will be changing them out as I go, so if I find a lighter weight barrel that still performs well I may or may not change it.

1/8 MOA turrets are more for bench rest style shooters, IMHO. You are going to get real tired of them if you have to adjust 40 MOA.

As far as bullets, you should be looking at ballistic coefficient. I'm sure the bullets you mentioned are fine but start comparing there BC to the heavier 7mm bullets. Then run some numbers through a ballistic calculator and see what the difference really is.

I agree with a previous post that it is going to be pretty hard to have a gun that you hunt with and shoot long range. Possible but it will be a bit heavy. My 7mm that I am currently working on is in the 12-13 lb range. I have a couple of other rifles that I shoot at extended ranges that are 15 lbs.

Ok. So focus more one one "specialty" and aim to achieve that but not both.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

Okay, long story short I have been looking into getting my first rifle and know that I want to get a Remington 700 mainly for the accuracy and reliability. I thought long and hard about this but wasn't sure if it would be worth it so am asking for everyone's sage advice. I originally had the .30-06 in mind, but after doing some long range shooting I got bitten by the bug and am now thinking a bit more carefully about calibers, mainly the .30-06 and the 7mm Remington Magnum. One one hand, I like the availability of .30-06 ammunition, but since I don't plan on hunting in areas where I would need to fly on a plane to get there until I am well out of college so a good 10 years this doesn't matter a whole lot, yet. I also like the all around flexibility of the cartridge for hunting all types of game and the price of the ammo. Flip side, I hope to do some fairly long range shooting of about 1400+ yards and this am not a huge fan of the 3000+ inches of drop and the some 200+ MOA needed to reach out that far with the 06. On the other hand, I like the power of the 7mm Rem Mag, the ability to knock down everything in North America and beyond (.30-06 can too), but also the range of the cartridge and the 1100 or so inches of drop and 70 +/- at 1400 yards. After I recover from the cost of the gun and accessories I will be getting, I hope to get into reloading to be able to fine tune the accuracy of the rifle and to "save" some money on ammo. I basically want to know, is it worth the extra $10 a box to get the 7mm?

My point of view, no! Long range shooting, great, but how far are you willing to fire on a game animal that you have a moral obligation to not wound and let escape. I'm not saying that you would do any such thing, you seem a very level headed guy, but
"Long range" rifles tend to get "stretched" when game is sighted.
I'm also saying get the '06 first, then down the road the magnum! More practice with $10.00 less per box!
Good luck with your decision and enjoy your new rifle!

 

[SparksFly]

My point of view, no! Long range shooting, great, but how far are you willing to fire on a game animal that you have a moral obligation to not wound and let escape. I'm not saying that you would do any such thing, you seem a very level headed guy, but
"Long range" rifles tend to get "stretched" when game is sighted.
I'm also saying get the '06 first, then down the road the magnum! More practice with $10.00 less per box!
Good luck with your decision and enjoy your new rifle!

That was one thing I guarenteed myself when I started thinking about a rifle for hunting, no shooting past 500 yards MAX on an animal. I don't want to wound an animal and I also don;t want to try and succeed as that becomes the camels nose under the tent.

 

[Argonaut]

I (as stated here several times) have hunted 3 continents with my trusty old 700 7mm mag. It is a wonderful long range caliber. (I don't know about 1400 yards, that seems extreme) I own many rifles, so in my tool chest it is a great fit. That being said, it isn't my go to rifle for game larger than deer. I prefer a 30 cal or over for elk or moose size game. I am a 308 guy as an all around game rifle, love a short action 700. In my experiance, 7mm ammo is available as any other caliber, the problem is you really need a quality bullet to resist fragmentation at close range. The longest range I have ever killed game at was about 600 yards. That is plenty far. Super long range shooting is best confined to targets or professional sniper work. It isn't practical for hunting. The rumor is the FBI is using 7mm mags in there teams now. The 7mm is a great bore size.....with excellent bullet availability. I have a buddy that has hunted trophy deer for decades with a 280 Remington made up as a super light mountain rifle. It is a nail driver with adaquate velocity and reasonable recoil. As you get older the cost of ammo becomes less of an issue. Hunting has always been expensive. The gas and living costs required to get to the field Far outweigh the cost of ammo. Hunting rifles are not shot thousands of rounds. My dad's old M14 Remington was last used to shoot deer by several people he loaned it to. It shot 10 deer in 3 years, we still have the remaining 10 live rounds in the box of ammo.

 

[SparksFly]

I (as stated here several times) have hunted 3 continents with my trusty old 700 7mm mag. It is a wonderful long range caliber. (I don't know about 1400 yards, that seems extreme) I own many rifles, so in my tool chest it is a great fit. That being said, it isn't my go to rifle for game larger than deer. I prefer a 30 cal or over for elk or moose size game. I am a 308 guy as an all around game rifle, love a short action 700. In my experiance, 7mm ammo is available as any other caliber, the problem is you really need a quality bullet to resist fragmentation at close range. The longest range I have ever killed game at was about 600 yards. That is plenty far. Super long range shooting is best confined to targets or professional sniper work. It isn't practical for hunting. The rumor is the FBI is using 7mm mags in there teams now. The 7mm is a great bore size.....with excellent bullet availability. I have a buddy that has hunted trophy deer for decades with a 280 Remington made up as a super light mountain rifle. It is a nail driver with adaquate velocity and reasonable recoil. As you get older the cost of ammo becomes less of an issue. Hunting has always been expensive. The gas and living costs required to get to the field Far outweigh the cost of ammo. Hunting rifles are not shot thousands of rounds. My dad's old M14 Remington was last used to shoot deer by several people he loaned it to. It shot 10 deer in 3 years, we still have the remaining 10 live rounds in the box of ammo.

That is some good information! Thanks! I would not be shooting long range as practice for hunting, that would just be for fn and to challenge myself.

 

[Crohnos01]

I agree the 7mm is a great long range rifle for hunting. As I said above, I took an Antelope at 800 yards with mine. Not because I wanted to shoot that far, but I was trophy hunting and that's the shot I had. One shot, animal died 20 feet from the point of impact. What I didn't say was that I shot that antelope after spending countless hours at the reloading bench and then at the range cooking up a round for the hunt. By the time I went afield, I had perfected the load and shot a couple hundred rounds through the gun getting what I wanted. I knew exactly what the rifle would do and at what range. I think its incumbent on hunters to put in some range time before they go out and mindlessly pull the trigger and wound an animal.