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Working on guns that are NOT your own?

Discussion in 'Maintenance & Gunsmithing' started by Izzy, Apr 1, 2010.

  1. Izzy

    Izzy Oakridge Active Member

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    I'm NOT a gun smith but I love to fix & modify guns.
    I would love to do some of this work for my friends & family, but I want to stay legal.
    What is OK & what is NOT?
    THANK YOU!!!
     
  2. chainsaw

    chainsaw East side of Or. Active Member

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    I'm no attorney,but I would think if you don't deface the serial number and you don't charge money,go for it.
     
  3. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

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    So do you have any good recipes?

    1420in20Wok.jpg
     
  4. Izzy

    Izzy Oakridge Active Member

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    "Don't deface the serial number and don't charge money"

    This is pretty much what I have been told. I don't feel right charging friends & family any way.

    I have also been told if I work on a gun belonging to another party, the owner of that gun needs to be there when I do the repairs or mods. (this just does not seem practical)
     
  5. coctailer

    coctailer Portland, OR/Hastings, MI/Vancouver,WA I run with scissors.

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    I doubt it would be an issue.

    If you are wanting to expand to have customers, then you are supposed to get a Type 07 Manufacturing FFL to do gunsmithing.

    If it is free for friends and family, I doubt you will have any problems.
     
  6. Izzy

    Izzy Oakridge Active Member

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    "Opening a can of worms"

    What about selling a gun I have done mods on?
     
  7. ZachS

    ZachS Eugene/PDX Active Member

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    I'd think that you of all people know that cast iron's almost a necessity for this type of cuisine - and that's clearly a spun steel wok, probably stainless.
     
  8. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    As long as its done in a once in awhile basis, and the money made is not a significant part of your overall income, its ok.

    There's no state/federal standards for gunsmiths that I know of...if so please enlighten me. In other words, one doesn't need a certificate or the like to do the work.
     
  9. coctailer

    coctailer Portland, OR/Hastings, MI/Vancouver,WA I run with scissors.

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    You can sell your personal guns that you modded.

    People mod AR-15s all the time and sell them when they get bored with it or need cash for rent.

    If you are doing it as a business, it would be illegal without a license.
     
  10. coctailer

    coctailer Portland, OR/Hastings, MI/Vancouver,WA I run with scissors.

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    Gunsmiths doing business for profit need an FFL.
     
  11. 56kninja

    56kninja Portland Member

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    Should be fine, given that you aren't accepting class 3 weapons, charging, and don't modify the gun to make it illegal, which includes turning it into a class 3 weapon, removing serial number, ect.

    Oh, and make sure they are legal to own a gun. So if you have a family you member that you know is an ex felon, and asks you to fix his glock, don't do it.
     
  12. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    As long as it done on an 'occasional' basis, and not a significant income, one does not need a FFL, which is stated in the Federal Firearms reference Guide 2005.

    What is the ATF definition of 'occasional' and 'significant' is a toss of the dice. I've been doing it for years this way, have been checked by ATF, and so far all is good to go.
     
  13. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Western OR Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm, no mention or warnings about liability??

    Curious indeed.
     
  14. ZachS

    ZachS Eugene/PDX Active Member

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    Normal liability rules apply. If OP works on a gun and it later blows up or discharges unexpectedly, he'll probably get sued. Presumably this will encourage him not to do anything negligent while working and/or to find some insurance that covers his activities. Just like if he was fixing his friends' lawnmowers or cars or motorbikes or anything else that's (metaphorically speaking) sharp and pointy.

    Or almost any activity at all, really. If OP made dolls for the neighborhood children, he might accidentally leave a sharp needle in one of them and maim somebody.
     
  15. wayoutwest

    wayoutwest Polk County, Oregon Active Member

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    Also something to consider, friends and family, but are you getting them face to face? would they be shipping them from across the state or out of state?

    If your doing a trigger job on a handgun, can your friend ship it to you?
     
  16. coctailer

    coctailer Portland, OR/Hastings, MI/Vancouver,WA I run with scissors.

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    I talked to ATF Seattle today about this. Kind of a fine line.

    If you are doing it for friends and family and not as a source of income, you are OK.

    They sent me some PDF rulings on this also. I don't know how to post them. (If anyone can tell me how to post an Adobe Acrobat PDF here that would help)

    In a nutshell, they aren't worried about regulating "hobbies".
     
  17. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide - 2005

    On page 37 under 478.1 under Subpart B (definitions) 478.11 Federal Firearms Regulations;

    (d) Gunsmith "A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engage in such activity as a regular course of trade or business, with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms."
    _____________________________________________________________

    Now we go to page 185 under 478.41 (I) GUNSMITHS

    (I1) Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing, or repairing firearms?

    Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the "definition" of a dealer.
    _____________________________________________________________

    But as the first point states, one is not considered a "gunsmith" by definition, if it is done on an occasional basis.

    So toss your dice folks. I have tossed mine, and so far no problems.
     
  18. Izzy

    Izzy Oakridge Active Member

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    Thanks every body! :thumbup:
     
  19. coctailer

    coctailer Portland, OR/Hastings, MI/Vancouver,WA I run with scissors.

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    You probably never will have an issue.
    The PDFs I have are clarifications on those. There have been many people asking ATF about defining what is, or is not allowed. Licensees, and non-licensees.
    I found it interesting that people applying Dura-Coat, annodizing, or parkerizing, for income need an 07 Manufacturing FFL.
     
  20. d1esel

    d1esel Ridgefield WA. Member

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    I agree with ZachS. Using any thing other than cast iron could have serious repercussions. I believe as long as a light beer batter is used, and care is taken not to burn Gus, no law enforcement will be involved.:D
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2010