Will the "old" trusts still work after the June 2014 new trust rules?

[Doc In UPlace]

Assuming you have a valid trust already (with at least one approval) I am wondering if the new trust rules requiring LEO signoff and photo/fingerprints will apply retroactively, nullifying the original trust, or if this new criteria will apply only to new trusts created after the rule is adopted (assuming it will be adopted)?

Any ideas on how they plan to implement this?

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[drew]

I thought it would only apply to items acquired after the proposed rules are adopted.

I'm still curious how this will work if adopted. The only time everyone on a trust would have a background check is when applying for new stamps unless I'm missing something. Of course, a trust can change the responsible parties easily.

 

[Doc In UPlace]

After the rule is adopted all members of the Trust must be fingerprinted, submit photo and LEO signoff.

Perhaps posting the entire proposed rule will help.

Amendment of §§ 479.63


The proposed § 479.63, where the applicant is a partnership, company, association, trust, or corporation:

1. Provides that the applicant must be identified on the Form 1 application by the name and exact location of the place of business, including the name of the county in which the business is located or, in the case of a trust, the address where the firearm is located. In the case of two or more locations, the address shown must be the principal place of business (or principal office, in the case of a corporation) or, in the case of a trust, the principal address at which the firearm is located;

2. Requires the applicant to attach to the application:
Documentation evidencing the existence and validity of the entity, which includes, without limitation, complete and unredacted copies of partnership agreements, articles of incorporation, corporate registration, declarations of trust with any trust schedules, attachments, exhibits, and enclosures; however, if the entity had an application approved as a maker or transferee within the preceding 24 months, and there has been no change to the documentation previously provided, the entity may provide a certification that the information has not changed since the prior approval and must identify the application for which the documentation had been submitted by form number, serial number, and date approved;

A completed ATF Form 5320.23 for each responsible person. Form 5320.23 would require certain identifying information for each responsible person, including each responsible person's full name, position, social security number (optional), home address, date and place of birth, and country of citizenship;

In accordance with the instructions provided on Form 5320.23, a photograph of each responsible person 2 × 2 inches in size, clearly showing a full front view of the features of the responsible person with head bare, with the distance from the top of the head to the point of the chin approximately 11/4inches, and which must have been taken within 1 year prior to the date of the application;

Two properly completed FBI Forms FD-258 (Fingerprint Card) for each responsible person. The fingerprints must be clear for accurate classification and should be taken by someone properly equipped to take them; and
In accordance with the instructions provided on Form 5320.23, a certificate for each responsible person completed by the local chief of police, sheriff of the county, head of the state police, state or local district attorney or prosecutor, or such other person whose certificate may in a particular case be acceptable to the Director.

The certificate for each responsible person must be completed by the CLEO who has jurisdiction in the area in which the responsible person resides. The certificate must state that the official is satisfied that the fingerprints and photograph accompanying the application are those of the responsible person and that the certifying official has no information indicating that possession of the firearm by the responsible person would be in violation of state or local law.

 

[drew]

After the rule is adopted all members of the Trust must be fingerprinted, submit photo and LEO signoff.

Perhaps posting the entire proposed rule will help.

Unless they change 479.63 to apply to entities that previously applied this wouldn't apply to existing trusts. The language still uses applicant so it would only apply to an existing application. It seemed pretty consistent that it would only apply to transfers. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if they adopted a rule that is different and ignores the financial impact they submitted.

 

[Doc In UPlace]

I see where you're going with this and that makes sense.

On the other hand each new transfer requires an application so logically each one is submitted by an applicant. If/when I pick up my Spectre this month I'll yak with the dealer rep about this and get back to the thread with what their expectation is.

But there is this small bonus:

however, if the entity had an application approved as a maker or transferee within the preceding 24 months, and there has been no change to the documentation previously provided, the entity may provide a certification that the information has not changed since the prior approval and must identify the application for which the documentation had been submitted by form number, serial number, and date approved;

Now that I'm reviewing the proposed rule it looks like they don't deal with the issue of established trusts at all, other than as above.

 

[PDXSparky]

I see where you're going with this and that makes sense.

On the other hand each new transfer requires an application so logically each one is submitted by an applicant. If/when I pick up my Spectre this month I'll yak with the dealer rep about this and get back to the thread with what their expectation is.

But there is this small bonus:

however, if the entity had an application approved as a maker or transferee within the preceding 24 months, and there has been no change to the documentation previously provided, the entity may provide a certification that the information has not changed since the prior approval and must identify the application for which the documentation had been submitted by form number, serial number, and date approved;

Now that I'm reviewing the proposed rule it looks like they don't deal with the issue of established trusts at all, other than as above.

That just means I'll have to submit a new form 1 or form 4 every other year.

 

[spectra]

That just means I'll have to submit a new form 1 or form 4 every other year.

I was thinking the same thing Just add to the collection every year to keep the files up to date...

 

[PDXSparky]

I was thinking the same thing Just add to the collection every year to keep the files up to date...

Agreed, but it's going to get expensive for us if we buy a new toy every year.

 

[spectra]

Agreed, but it's going to get expensive for us if we buy a new toy every year.

Not as bad as what my wife spends on clothes Have you seen the price on designer jeans You can almost get a stamp for that........

 

[jekbrown]

Who says the new rule is being implemented in June of 2014? I thought that once the comment period ended and the atf had responded to said comments they could change the rule at any time they chose. I wasn't aware there was a deadline...

 

[Doc In UPlace]

Word was that the BATFE estimated it'll take to summer to review and answer the 8,000 non-rejected comments.

 

[jekbrown]

Gotcha. The crappy part for me is that I have a trust but I have to wait until June to apply to get an SBR...so yes, barring some kind of miracle or temporary insanity at atf, i'm screwed. I could apply to get a suppressor but it wouldn't be approved before June either most likely.

 

[SCARed]

Assuming your in WA by your comment, you don't need to wait until June to file. Since everything needs to be filed by mail currently, Send it in now. It will take them 6mos if not more before they even look at your file.

 

[usagi]

Word was that the BATFE estimated it'll take to summer to review and answer the 8,000 non-rejected comments.

the word was summer of *2015*. there is ONE person working the reviews and writing the responses. and then who knows how long after that before any changes go into effect. it's not like the instant the batfe finishes responding that the proposed rule changes are immediately enabled.

 

[jekbrown]

If true, that's awesome news. I'd have all the NFA stuff I want by then. The question is: how reliable is that information. Source?

 

[usagi]

If true, that's awesome news. I'd have all the NFA stuff I want by then. The question is: how reliable is that information. Source?

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2014/04/status-update-on-41p.html

 

[PDXSparky]

If true, that's awesome news. I'd have all the NFA stuff I want by then. The question is: how reliable is that information. Source?

"All the NFA stuff I want"....ha ha ha ha.....

 

[jekbrown]

Heh heh. At least until wa legalizes SBS. I always want more guns... but two SBRs is about all I'll be able to do for quite awhile. I just bought a tavor, and an eotech for it. That alone is gonna slay the gun budget for awhile!

 

[best defense]

Yeah, I applied last November. Apparently there were lots of applications at about the same time, so I will probably be lucky if my application sees the light of day before the end of the year.

I was wondering if there is any information about whether an electronic application goes any faster than a paper application?

 

[jekbrown]

Assuming your in WA by your comment, you don't need to wait until June to file. Since everything needs to be filed by mail currently, Send it in now. It will take them 6mos if not more before they even look at your file.

The problem, as others have pointed out to me, is that at the bottom of the form 1 you sign/date/swear/affirm, under penalty of purjury, that what you are applying to make is legal under state law. If you apply on may 1st, and sign/date 5/1/14, you could be charged with purjury, because making an SBR prior to 6/12/14 certainly is illegal under state law, and anyone following the issue knows that.

So yeah, you could apply now... and maybe the atf doesn't worry about the effective date because it's already past by the time they read the app. On the other hand, maybe they decided to ruin your life and stomp your cat to death.

Go for it if you want to, but I carry a gun for a living and if I get a fed charge for some shenanigans like this I will lose my job. Not exactly worth it when I can just wait 2 months and have no chance of getting in trouble. YMMV.