Why is there still a forward assist on AR's?

[clambo]

I am not an AR expert or even an AR owner. My experience is only US Army M16A1. I loved the little rifles light weight, ease of disassembly, and combat accuracy. What turned me off of the design was the fact that every single M16A1 I was ever issued jammed with great frequency. I rarely got off more that 4 or 5 shots without it jamming. It didnt matter how clean it was or what magazines I used, they just jammed. So, the need for forward assist is pretty obvious to me. A bandaid on a poor design in my opinion and they knew it/know it.
Fast forward 30 yrs. and I have to assume something has been done to fix the problem. I dont see many if any people reporting a problem with jamming anywhere Ive looked. The military doesnt seem to be reporting anything abnormal after a dozen years of war. I sure wish I knew what has changed, in my older age I admit I wouldnt mind an old A1 type clone, just for fun. Dont wanna spend the money until I know for sure that the reliability has greatly improved.

 

[metrotps]

Because the guy who put his name, (may he rest in peace) on this rifle thought there should be one...

 

[coctailer]

The forward assist was added as an Army regulation. All rifles supplied to the Army were required to have a manual way to close the bolt.

It was not added out of necessity. The original ones without the forward assist worked just fine. The Army wanted the gun also when they saw the Air Force using them.
The early M16 rifles without it were for the Air Force, the later M16A1s with the forward assist were for the Army.

The regulation for the contract was to add some way to manually close the bolt.

Now you know the actual true story of why there is a forward assist.

Some ARs still have the forward assist, some don't. The ones that do are satisfying the commercial demand for a rifle that is "Just like what the military uses"

 

[Trailboss]

Stoners design dumps burned powder residue back into the chamber/action. After awhile, this accumulation prevents the bolt from going into battery. The forward assist attempts to force it. It's true that the AK design bolt handle could be used as a forward assist though there is little to no evidence that it is used for this purpose. The AK design dumps burned gas into the piston which drives a rod back, ejecting the round. The chamber remains cleaner than an AR but the piston adds a bit of weight.

 

[Spitpatch]

I carried one every day for four years. The first ones we got had forward assists AND open prong flash suppressors ("three finger "frnork"" we called them), along with Pepto-Bismol forends. Though I was not a jungle fighter, I went into uncivilized territory in harsh conditions every single day. The later models we got were sans forward assist, but tubular forearms.

I saw regularly and frequently conditions that would cause a small-stature semi-auto to fail. I did not develop in new fashion this distinction toward the M16 specifically: I knew from lots of (extremely favorable) previous experiences with semi-automatic guns what could contribute to a potential failure.

I can tell you this: It is one tough little action. It is NOT robust. If I had to fight for my life in an environment full of the material that might cause an action like this to fail, I would want that Panic Button. It just might (Gawdalmighty!) work.

 

[CounterOfBeans]

Damnit. I posted a concession to the error of my ways with this FA thread an hour or two ago and now I see that it didn't even take. I got all humble and everything.

So quickly, I'll make it short and sweet this time. @ WAYNO and others. Saxon served me up with my first helping of humble pie in post #5, by explaining the obvious, i.e. other guns have FA's too... they're called bolt handles. Talk about a head slapper. I conceded the point in #8 (@ Saxon) with "duh" as my response. So the next time I get all uppity, thinking I've caught onto something that the gun world has somehow overlooked for decades, maybe I'll just phone a friend first. OP fail indeed.

 

[Ben B.]

I've had a FA help once. Other times, it made the jam worse, and they don't come with a backward assist to jam it back open. All these probs came from a batch of slightly out of spec reloaded ammo. A small base die fixed that ammo.

I find with an AR malfxn, which I very rarely have, that it is MUCH better to clear that round and chamber the next, instead of trying to jam the bolt closed on a round that won't chamber, while hoping that doesn't make things worse. Mortaring the action open to clear the problem and try the next round is the best bet.

 

[Velzey]

If you have ever really needed/tried to use the finger groove type forward assist on an HK93, you will soon learn how nice the forward assist on an AR is..

 

[wichaka]

I use my fa every time I load. The ar platform will push grime out if it gets to that point. I doubt many will get to that point unless you dont clean on purpose.

 

[Trailboss]

I use my fa every time I load. The ar platform will push grime out if it gets to that point. I doubt many will get to that point unless you dont clean on purpose.

I've noticed that Wolf steel case is very dirty and leaves a black grime that cleans out when fresh but which hardens if left sitting. The FA allows me to continue shooting the Wolf even if the AR gets quite dirty, but if I don't clean after, my next shoot won't chamber reliably until I clean it well. Much harder to clean after the grime gets hard.

 

[Nickb]

I prefer the smooth receiver look, I just saw a DPMS that did not have it, I thought it looked pretty clean and simple.

 

[usagi]

no they have bolt handles with them they can slam forward or use them kick starter fasion if a round jams, try that in an AR with no forward assist

quite easy actually, just push the detent in the side of the bcg with your thumb.

 

[Nwcid]

quite easy actually, just push the detent in the side of the bcg with your thumb.

Guess you have smaller and stronger thumbs then many. Also you can not apply near the force on the bolt as the FA.

 

[oknow]

quite easy actually, just push the detent in the side of the bcg with your thumb.

Yeah, do that after one or two magazines down range. enjoy the ice

 

[Ben B.]

quite easy actually, just push the detent in the side of the bcg with your thumb.

If it doesn't go fwd with thumb on BCG pressure, jamming BCG with a FA may cause more problems than it fixes. Better to rack that round out and chamber another.

 

[Burt Gummer]

It is there to put a gas vent in its place for suppressor use.

 

[usagi]

Guess you have smaller and stronger thumbs then many. Also you can not apply near the force on the bolt as the FA.

if you have to use any more than hand pressure, there is something wrong with the firearm or round. forcing a round that would otherwise not freely chamber is not safe. it is designed to overcome a bit of fouling or debris, it is not intended to crush the round into an obstructed chamber.

better to eject the round and inspect the weapon than risk facial reconstructive surgery from a KB.

 

[usagi]

It is there to put a gas vent in its place for suppressor use.

this. best use ever.

 

[usagi]

Yeah, do that after one or two magazines down range. enjoy the ice

have you ever tried it?

Colt M4 after 90 rounds, full auto fire. temperatures in fahrenheit.
FH 317
Barrel 349
GB 258
Upper 135.5
BC 109.5
Bolt 90.5

you can do a mag dump, pull the bcg and hold it in your palm without problems. what ice are you needing here?

 

[KillerBD]

Just for posterity:

AK, M1A, Garand; these all have operating-rods/bolt-carriers that are in direct control over the bolt. Therefore they can and ARE used as a 'forward assist' which is a term that is coined with the M16A1 series, as explained above.

So saying designs like an AK 'lack' forward-assists is kind of asinine... I have used the charging-handle on my M1A to fully seat the bolt (forward assist) so yes, it works superbly as such, just like the FA on an AR. So I really fail to understand some comments about how other firearms 'lack' this feature.

Now I keep reading these odd comments about trying to get stuck casings out of the chamber on some firearms, which I have no idea how a FA would help in such a situation. "Yeah I got a casing stuck in my SKS... If only I had an extra pointless piece of equipment that would jam the cartridge even further into the chamber... Like a forward assist...":huh:

Not trying to make fun of you, just pointing out the redundancy...

Lets just look at the AR/M16 for now: The original model did in fact LACK a 'forward assist' but as mentioned above, the M16A1 series integrated one and so fourth (A2/A3/A4/etc). Now some models that you can buy on the civilian market can be bought without one, but this is usually for 'lower end/cheaper' models. Having a forward assist on an AR IS a very good to have feature; is it necessary? Well no it isn't, but it's an improvement in relation to not having it at all. I have used the M16A2 and M4A1, I'm not sure what these models have that really changed from the M16A1 series in terms of functionality. Yes they have some 'extra' features, but nothing on them has changed the way the rifle functions/cycles/loads/disassembles/etc. Putting new grips/hand-guards/etc on a rifle doesn't change the way it works.

We still use the direct impingement gas system, which BTW the French were the first ones to use this kind of a system (first experimented on in 1901, adopted in the MAS-49/1949) before Stoner designed the AR-10/15. Just some insight since I've heard people refer to the AR systems 'DI' gas system as being the 'first ever', when in actuality it is just a more refined version of something that had been tried decades before.

IMHO, piston-driven is far superior in context of a standard-use, intermediate-cartridge rifle, simply because it prevents excessive fouling caused by carbon build up in and around the bolt/chamber/carrier/receiver.

As for fixing a jam, honestly I have rarely used the FA; because most of the 'jams' I find myself in I simply rack the bolt back and release to fix. Failure to extract is the most common I've encountered in training, and this is predominantly/only while firing blank-ammunition with our BFA. Blanks tend to have far less 'powder/power' than their live-ammo counterpart, so cycling the bolt is the issue. Slapping a forward assist because I'm trying to cycle my bolt would make about as much sense as wiping my butt before I poop...

Now again this is why I believe having a piston-driven type of system outperforms any kind of direct-impingement, sure keeping your rifle clean is of high importance no matter what. But I've been in situations where you can't just go home every night and clean your rifle to perfection so you know it will perform flawlessly the next day. Sometimes the situation dictates otherwise, so just tossing people under the bus and saying "well you should clean your rifle better" sometimes doesn't apply. I partly agree with you here, but this isn't 'bulletproof' logic. Extreme outdoors, dusty+windy, dirty environments can take a toll on simple PCM/maintenance on your equipment; this being said I still do 'other tricks' to keep my rifle as clean as possible and have yet to run into an issue while firing live-rounds because I failed to properly maintain my rifle. One trick I do, really simple, since we often carry our M4s everywhere we go with no mag inserted (as per our regulations, unless we are on the range/firing, yeah I know, BS safety-Nancy regs) I simply put a handkerchief in the mag-well to keep extra dust/grime out, along with of course keeping my 'dust cover' closed.

Again I think more or less everyone is on track as to why/what/who/when. Just throwing out my own insight for posterity.