Why is it that defensive pistol classes require you to train not the way you carry?

[accessbob]

I have been looking at getting some defensive pistol training. However, the one thing that disheartens me immensely is how I am unable to take any of this training without going out and buying another holster. And then, even if I do have it, I won't be training the way I will be carrying. So, how good is training in a way you won't actually be using it?

For me, it is that I use a Sticky Holster. That is what I use and I won't be using an OWB Belt holster. But I can't get any training without going and getting the equipment that I will not be using. Totally is a bummer.

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[SKN]

In most instances all of the requirements for a holster used in a class has to do with safety: covered trigger guard, weapon held securely, holster secured to body or garment, rigid mouth to allow for controlled reholstering, etc. This not only has to do with you but also the safety of others in the class including the instructor(s) and may be due to prior experiences the trainer has had, or imposed for liability insurance sake. Safe drawstroke and recovery techniques, however, can be universally applied to just about any carry system once learned. You might try seeking out a venue where individual or 'private' instruction is offered. BTW, is a "sticky holster" a pocket holster?

 

[Thebastidge]

Part of the problem is generic training.

But as SKN says, it's a safety issue for teaching people in a group environemnt. If you want individualized instruction, be prepared to spend a little (perhaps a lot) more. You've got to understand that most training is safety, rather than tactically oriented. And it's mostly pretty basic. Preparing the mindset more than the body.

 

[TapRackNGo]

Professional training will change your mindset and everything you think you know now will change after a few quality classes. Besides the safety aspect you may find yourself wanting a different holster after.

 

[chemist]

I trained at OFA with my every-day IWB holster. It's a Comp-Tac MTAC, and it stays open, so re-holstering can be done with one hand. IIRC that was the only holster requirement at OFA Defensive Handgun class.

My biggest gripe with what was otherwise a good class is that we could only move forwards and backwards, since we were shoulder-to-shoulder and there was no space to go jumping around side-to-side.

Classes are a nice way to get somebody else's perspective and to get a new piece of paper to hang over a wall stain, but they don't come close to realistic training. Most RSO's would go pale if they saw me shooting in the woods, spinning around, engaging multiple targets from low-ready, and even falling on my arse sometimes.

 

[Misterbill]

There IS a difference between classes.

I will not allow specifically:

1.cross-draw holsters They endanger everyone to your weak side in a class.
2. SERPA holsters they are disallowed by NMe, because I think they are a safety issue AND my insurance company for the same reason.
3. Thigh rigs because I think they are a safety concern.

I allow ANY strong side or SOB holsters unless they are SERPA.

The types of carry I disallow on the range I WILL allow in a private setting with a signed liability statement. In other words, you can endanger yourself all you want, you don't get to endanger me or any other student.

I primarily tech strong-side waist. It's just the best way of carrying. For anything else, you'll require a private setting because you're potentially putting at risk other students who don't even know that your method of carry is inherently unsafe.

Fair enough answer to your query?

 

[OFADAN]

accessbob, PM or email me if you're serious about your training and if you'd even consider training at OFA. We're a strong believer in "training the way you carry" and don't expect folks to buy gear specifically just for us - unless of course it is for legal or safety reasons which is what people should be doing anyway! We've had student's use Sticky Holsters at OFA before - both their pocket and IWB models. What SKN said is exactly our stance...holster must cover the trigger gaurd, must have a mouth that remains open (for safety) and controlling pistol, & must stay in place and not shift/move around.

Chemist, I remember the class we had together, with you and your wife training together on the right end of the line. That class was done at TCGC and we had a larger number of students because TCGC wanted us to train their folks for their action range and its certification. If you'd come down to OFA you'd find we're moving all over the place and even the threats and non-threats are moving laterally, charging toward you, and wobbling/moving around. We have more space between students at OFA and a less number of them training but with the same number of instructors. Unfortunately we just cannot cover everything and ever tactic in one 8 hour basic class. If you'll recall we still had a couple students struggling with the very basic skills even at the end of the day. We have to gradually work up the students as not everyone is at the same level.

 

[jasonabernathy75]

First I have heard of SERPA's being unsafe. Every class and instructor raves about them, can you explain why. I tactical shoot all the time and in my tacticle gear, I use a thigh rig, what is wrong with those also?

There IS a difference between classes.

I will not allow specifically:

1.cross-draw holsters They endanger everyone to your weak side in a class.
2. SERPA holsters they are disallowed by NMe, because I think they are a safety issue AND my insurance company for the same reason.
3. Thigh rigs because I think they are a safety concern.

I allow ANY strong side or SOB holsters unless they are SERPA.

The types of carry I disallow on the range I WILL allow in a private setting with a signed liability statement. In other words, you can endanger yourself all you want, you don't get to endanger me or any other student.

I primarily tech strong-side waist. It's just the best way of carrying. For anything else, you'll require a private setting because you're potentially putting at risk other students who don't even know that your method of carry is inherently unsafe.

Fair enough answer to your query?

 

[Nwcid]

First I have heard of SERPA's being unsafe. Every class and instructor raves about them, can you explain why.

Serpa problems - Bing Here is a whole list of problems people have and why.

In MY opinion (and you get what you pay for) the SERPA being unsafe is the same as saying a Glock is unsafe because the way the safety works.

 

[Atroxus]

From what I read at Serpa holster safety issues. in IDPA Equipment Questions Forum the Serpa safety issues seem to be more a problem of user error than hardware failure.

I have a serpa, and don't see how anyone would consider the holster unsafe when used properly.

 

[jasonabernathy75]

Totally agree, sounds like they cant operate a retention holster under pressure, which is not a safety concern, its a muscle memory concern and lack of training. I have one and i can easily use my trigger finger to unlatch and have my finger securely on the frame as we are suppose to. I have had the twist and pull holsters which i had no problem, but it took time to learn it. WIth anything in shooting, it takes practice and muscle memory to develop the skill. I like the holster, when at ARC at Tri County, everyone has one, and every police officer now looks to have one.

From what I read at Serpa holster safety issues. in IDPA Equipment Questions Forum the Serpa safety issues seem to be more a problem of user error than hardware failure.

I have a serpa, and don't see how anyone would consider the holster unsafe when used properly.

 

[Riot]

Chemist, I remember the class we had together, with you and your wife training together on the right end of the line. That class was done at TCGC and we had a larger number of students because TCGC wanted us to train their folks for their action range and its certification. If you'd come down to OFA you'd find we're moving all over the place and even the threats and non-threats are moving laterally, charging toward you, and wobbling/moving around. We have more space between students at OFA and a less number of them training but with the same number of instructors. Unfortunately we just cannot cover everything and ever tactic in one 8 hour basic class. If you'll recall we still had a couple students struggling with the very basic skills even at the end of the day. We have to gradually work up the students as not everyone is at the same level.

So to summarize, not everyone got the full benefit of the training because you held everyone back for the one's that were struggling? if I paid for a defensive pistol class, I would expect to get my money's worth...don't you think that the students that were struggling should have been pulled aside and provide special instruction- versus dragging the entire class down?

 

[OFADAN]

So to summarize, not everyone got the full benefit of the training because you held everyone back for the one's that were struggling? if I paid for a defensive pistol class, I would expect to get my money's worth...don't you think that the students that were struggling should have been pulled aside and provide special instruction- versus dragging the entire class down?

Riot, that is not what I meant...please hear me out....everyone in that class got 100% of what they signed up and paid for. We know because we consistantly measure in three different ways: student Verbal feedback, written feedback, and then a competency-skill completion/incompletion sheet - plus the staff's after action debrief. If the class didn't, for whatever reason, cover everything they were promised they'd know this because we're 100% transparent providing them before hand with a list of competencies we're intenting on covering in the DH1 course. Also in our written evals we ask for feedback at the end of the class and one of the questions we ask is students to rank us on value of their dollars for the learning/training provided. We ask for their evaluations and if someone didn't feel they got their money's worth we'd know it and make adjustments as neccessary. Over the 17 years's we've been in business the student feedback has been valuable in helping us fine tune our courses providing even more value and to validate that our model and methodology is working.

How I understood it is Chemist alluted he'd like to do more movement etc which is not part of this course's objectives. And I meant to say we can only do so much in any one class and that we intentionally introduce movement like he suggested in the next level intermedate course - not in this basic level course regardless of where it is conducted. So when I suggested to Chemist (and re-reading it I didn't articulate this clearly) is if you'll come down to OFA's campus for your Defensive Handgun 2 course (not this DH1 he took at TCGC) he will be introduced to Tactical and Rapid Movement. It is in the DH2 course and other intermedate level courses where we move. Again, in this course we limit movement on purpose regardless if anyone is struggling or not. Also we can do movement anywhere but OFA's campus is ideally suited for this level of training for various reasons.

Riot, no one was holding anyone back...the class accomplished 100% of it's course objectives which every student gets to document at the end of the course. At the beginning of this course we provide them with the documentation and introduce what we're going to accomplish before doing so. If anyone didn't get their full value they'd know this by the end of the day when we go through this sheet.

When a course is designed we understand student's are going to go at different speeds. We try to give value to everyone and are able to work with students of all struggle levels by having a high instructor to student ratio. And if we do have anyone struggling beyond what is typical and if it is holding up the class, and/or causing safety issues, then we do pull the student to a different bay and work with them one-on-one. We've done this before and are prepared to do so again if needed. This is mighty embarrasing to the student and so if we do not have to do this we won't. Also if student's are training with others (friends, love ones etc) then it is even more embarrasing. Again, we've done this and will again if it is needed to keep the class safe and/or moving along at a typical pace.

Bottom line...the class was not held back or dragged down. We accomplished everything we set out to accomplish and everyone who wanted to become Action Certifed was. And everyone who graduated from the class was introduced too and was able to practice all the skills/competencies outlined at the beginning. While some movement is introduced the movement Chemist mentioned is not part of this course's objectives. I pray I've made this a wee bit clearer.

 

[Riot]

Riot, that is not what I meant...please hear me out....everyone in that class got 100% of what they signed up and paid for. We know because we consistantly measure in three different ways: student Verbal feedback, written feedback, and then a competency-skill completion/incompletion sheet - plus the staff's after action debrief. If the class didn't, for whatever reason, cover everything they were promised they'd know this because we're 100% transparent providing them before hand with a list of competencies we're intenting on covering in the DH1 course. Also in our written evals we ask for feedback at the end of the class and one of the questions we ask is students to rank us on value of their dollars for the learning/training provided. We ask for their evaluations and if someone didn't feel they got their money's worth we'd know it and make adjustments as neccessary. Over the 17 years's we've been in business the student feedback has been valuable in helping us fine tune our courses providing even more value and to validate that our model and methodology is working.

How I understood it is Chemist alluted he'd like to do more movement etc which is not part of this course's objectives. And I meant to say we can only do so much in any one class and that we intentionally introduce movement like he suggested in the next level intermedate course - not in this basic level course regardless of where it is conducted. So when I suggested to Chemist (and re-reading it I didn't articulate this clearly) is if you'll come down to OFA's campus for your Defensive Handgun 2 course (not this DH1 he took at TCGC) he will be introduced to Tactical and Rapid Movement. It is in the DH2 course and other intermedate level courses where we move. Again, in this course we limit movement on purpose regardless if anyone is struggling or not. Also we can do movement anywhere but OFA's campus is ideally suited for this level of training for various reasons.

Riot, no one was holding anyone back...the class accomplished 100% of it's course objectives which every student gets to document at the end of the course. At the beginning of this course we provide them with the documentation and introduce what we're going to accomplish before doing so. If anyone didn't get their full value they'd know this by the end of the day when we go through this sheet.

When a course is designed we understand student's are going to go at different speeds. We try to give value to everyone and are able to work with students of all struggle levels by having a high instructor to student ratio. And if we do have anyone struggling beyond what is typical and if it is holding up the class, and/or causing safety issues, then we do pull the student to a different bay and work with them one-on-one. We've done this before and are prepared to do so again if needed. This is mighty embarrasing to the student and so if we do not have to do this we won't. Also if student's are training with others (friends, love ones etc) then it is even more embarrasing. Again, we've done this and will again if it is needed to keep the class safe and/or moving along at a typical pace.

Bottom line...the class was not held back or dragged down. We accomplished everything we set out to accomplish and everyone who wanted to become Action Certifed was. And everyone who graduated from the class was introduced too and was able to practice all the skills/competencies outlined at the beginning. While some movement is introduced the movement Chemist mentioned is not part of this course's objectives. I pray I've made this a wee bit clearer.

Thank you for this clarification...and you did make this more clear. I apologize for jumping down your throat and assuming that you held back an entire class of students due to the failures of the few.

 

[accessbob]

accessbob, PM or email me if you're serious about your training and if you'd even consider training at OFA. We're a strong believer in "training the way you carry" and don't expect folks to buy gear specifically just for us - unless of course it is for legal or safety reasons which is what people should be doing anyway! We've had student's use Sticky Holsters at OFA before - both their pocket and IWB models. What SKN said is exactly our stance...holster must cover the trigger gaurd, must have a mouth that remains open (for safety) and controlling pistol, & must stay in place and not shift/move around.

I would be interested as soon as I can get some money together (there seems to be a conspiracy going on which keeps my bank account drained - lol). When you say, "must have a mouth that remains open," I assume since you say you've had Sticky Holsters used before that, even though they don't say completely open, the top above belt-line does and it is fairly easy to reholster

 

[Trailboss]

Most RSO's would go pale if they saw me shooting in the woods, spinning around, engaging multiple targets from low-ready, and even falling on my arse sometimes.

Gosh, I hope I never see this while I'm out in the woods. I have a weak heart and the laughter could kill me.