Why I will not sell my small rifle primers (and a reason why there is a shortage)

[CLT65]

Nothing turns gun owners into socialists faster than high ammo and component prices.

I don't necessarily agree. A socialist would say "We need a law...".

I see people on here saying that they think it's unethical to clean off the shelves at Bi-Mart only to flip it for triple, but I haven't heard anyone calling for laws to stop it. Just because I don't think it should be illegal, doesn't mean I have to like it.

I also don't worship at the alter of capitalism. It's merely a human system, and as such it does have it's flaws; it's not written in stone as some kind of 11th commandment. Any human system or institution is really only as good as the humans who run it. Capitalism is preferable to socialism because it is more compatible with human nature, and it allows for more personal freedom than socialism.

As to primers- no way I will pay those crazy high prices. I have enough to wait out this bubble. I haven't heard any calls to ban primers. This too shall pass.

 

[madmax]

I donate to charities of all kinds. Reloading is not a charity.

Wear did you come up with the words "Charity" and "donate"

 

[ma96782]

WOW......earlier in this "situation" I sold primers at $40 and $50 a brick (actually sold them by the case). Yes, I did feel some guilt back then.

But at the prices that are being mentioned in this thread.....
Does this mean that I can crawl out from under my rock now?

Aloha, Mark

 

[jmackenzie]

I don't necessarily agree. A socialist would say "We need a law...".

I see people on here saying that they think it's unethical to clean off the shelves at Bi-Mart only to flip it for triple, but I haven't heard anyone calling for laws to stop it. Just because I don't think it should be illegal, doesn't mean I have to like it.

I also don't worship at the alter of capitalism. It's merely a human system, and as such it does have it's flaws; it's not written in stone as some kind of 11th commandment. Any human system or institution is really only as good as the humans who run it. Capitalism is preferable to socialism because it is more compatible with human nature, and it allows for more personal freedom than socialism.

As to primers- no way I will pay those crazy high prices. I have enough to wait out this bubble. I haven't heard any calls to ban primers. This too shall pass.

"I see people on here saying that they think it's unethical to clean off the shelves at Bi-Mart only to flip it for triple"

Why is it unethical in a capitalist system? No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. Apple makes Airpods for less that $5 a pair, puts their name on them and sells them for $200. I blame the buyers, not Apple.

 

[jmackenzie]

Wear did you come up with the words "Charity" and "donate"

Learned them in school and applied them to your situation. My understanding is that you sold items for well below market to help others. The amount it was below market would be a donation, I would only donate to a charity. You have the absolute right to donate to non charities, but that does not compel me to do likewise.

 

[jmackenzie]

WOW......earlier in this "situation" I sold primers at $40 and $50 a brick (actually sold them by the case). Yes, I did feel some guilt back then.

But at the prices that are being mentioned in this thread.....
Does this mean that I can crawl out from under my rock now?

Aloha, Mark

Those were bargain prices.

 

[Dozer99]

Example:

Way back in the early 80's I brought a house. It was a 3/2 with 1/4 acre. I paid $28,000. In 13 I sold that house for 100 times what I paid for it.

Is that gouging? Does Capitalism hurt the "little guy". Should I have felt bad for the buyer?

Or could you say that that was a "wise" investment that paid off.

Now, that is a large scale example but how is that different than the Ingram Mac 10 I brought in the same year that is now worth 10 times what I paid for it.

Or the primers you bought last month that you sell in Jan for 10 times what you paid.


Tell us, which one is gouging and how, we'll wait.

 

[madmax]

Learned them in school and applied them to your situation. My understanding is that you sold items for well below market to help others. The amount it was below market would be a donation, I would only donate to a charity. You have the absolute right to donate to non charities, but that does not compel me to do likewise.

No, not even close. They paid the glowing rate
They gladly paid that.


My point of posting was, to encourage others share there stock pile with others. The more reloaders the better. Look out for the next generation.

 

[Member 5605]

I just sold 6,000 primers today for $37.50/brick. Exactly what I paid for them a month ago from another member.

I know damn well they won't end up on this forum or anywhere else marked up. They are going to well deserved homes for people who will use them.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

Nothing turns gun owners into socialists faster than high ammo and component prices. If someone is willing to pay X, then it is not gouging. It is called capitalism. Gouging is limited to things like raising prices on food and water during an earthquake or hurricane, primers are not a necessity. There is no set price for an item in a non socialist nation.

complaining about gougers is not socialism, but a determination of what the market will bear by the invisible hand of the market. Its still pure capitalism.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

Example:

Way back in the early 80's I brought a house. It was a 3/2 with 1/4 acre. I paid $28,000. In 13 I sold that house for 100 times what I paid for it.

Is that gouging? Does Capitalism hurt the "little guy". Should I have felt bad for the buyer?

Or could you say that that was a "wise" investment that paid off.

Now, that is a large scale example but how is that different than the Ingram Mac 10 I brought in the same year that is now worth 10 times what I paid for it.

Or the primers you bought last month that you sell in Jan for 10 times what you paid.


Tell us, which one is gouging and how, we'll wait.

28k to almost 3million? Impressive.

 

[CLT65]

"I see people on here saying that they think it's unethical to clean off the shelves at Bi-Mart only to flip it for triple"

Why is it unethical in a capitalist system? No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. Apple makes Airpods for less that $5 a pair, puts their name on them and sells them for $200. I blame the buyers, not Apple.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. People are free to feel however they want about anything. I'm not saying it's necessarily unethical, but neither would I defend it by just saying "That's capitalism!". Capitalism is freedom, and I will defend freedom, but not everything that happens under the guise of capitalism is morally right. In a free society, others are often free to do things that we might think are wrong. Free speech gives us the right to say what we think about it, even as we defend the other person's right to do it.

Personally I can't really say that it's morally wrong to "clean off the shelves at Bi-Mart and flip it for triple" but it sure seems like a cheesy thing to do. I certainly don't want a law to stop someone else to do it. That's freedom- I'll defend your right to do it, but I'm under no obligation to approve, just like you're under no obligation to sell for less than whatever you choose.

As far as selling my own stash if I chose to do so: Unless selling to a friend, I would sell for whatever the market will bear. I also reserve to give someone a good deal if I so choose.

Here is why this particular issue is different from so many other things. The current market for ammo and components is a classic bubble. The items in question are still being manufactured. The manufacturers have the same costs to manufacture, the distributors have the same costs, and the retailers the same cost. Big retailers for whom ammo is simply another product, hold to about the same profit margin. This allows for huge profits in the secondary market.

For example- selling your house: for a direct comparison you would need to have home builders building and selling homes at the prices of years ago. Flippers would grab them as quick as they could and sell them for double to the general public. This would result in the general public screaming about the ethics of it, and likely socialist laws passed to stop it. Is it the fault of the buying public, or even the flippers taking advantage of them for a quick buck? Not really. It would also never happen for home builders to sell for under market value.

To really get at the root of the problem, you'd have to look at why the manufacturers, distributors, and big retailers don't raise their prices to whatever the market will bear. They absolutely could, and in some ways it might be better for the general shooting public. The shelves wouldn't be cleaned off so fast because there wouldn't be a quick, easy buck for the flippers. Ammo on the shelves, even at a higher price, would comfort many people into NOT buying and stashing as much as they can.

 

[awshoot]

Capitalism is great when it adds value but there is this thing that much of our economy is based on now that we've gotten away from actually building wealth called "rent seeking" behavior. This is behavior that adds no wealth to the economy but instead concentrates the wealth that exists. Think financial meltdow of a few years ago for what happens with rent seeking run amok -- it's is the opposite of productive capitalism because builds nothing but simply adds costs to what exists.

As a small example, I looked at gunbroker last night at primers. There was a guy with 20k up across multiple separate ads (these were only the active ads mind you). He found a way to insert himself into the normal distribution chain and create a little dam where he siphoned off a significant number of primers into his hands, and he then turns around and sells them at obscene prices because of the shortages in the normal distribution channels he and others like him have created. He added no wealth to the economy -- rather, he helped create a shortage in order to profit from it. That makes him a rent seeking leach engaging in destructive capitalism.

This is what constructive capitalism would look like: A person calls up Unis Ginex or Sellier & Bellot or whoever makes primers for Aguila (because all US manufacturers are supplying their own ammo making needs it seems), buys a bunch, does the proper ATF paperwork, arranges shipping, storage and distribution, and ADDS to the market. The price for the imports might be $300/K but in bringing in new goods that did not exist here, that person is adding to the wealth of the nation. THAT would be positive capitalism (even if the price was obscenely high) because instead of trying to create a shortage to profit from it, he is meeting a market demand with new goods. He is bringing wealth in rather than merely redistributing profit into his own pocket by being a rent seeking middleman. He is instead a wealth increasing middleman. The difference is subtle but is the difference between being a drain on the economy, and being a builder of the economy.

 

[Stomper]

I just sold 6,000 primers today for $37.50/brick. Exactly what I paid for them a month ago from another member.

I know damn well they won't end up on this forum or anywhere else marked up. They are going to well deserved homes for people who will use them.

Why yes, you are correct good sir!

 

[TTSX]

Example:

Way back in the early 80's I brought a house. It was a 3/2 with 1/4 acre. I paid $28,000. In 13 I sold that house for 100 times what I paid for it.

Is that gouging? Does Capitalism hurt the "little guy". Should I have felt bad for the buyer?

Or could you say that that was a "wise" investment that paid off.

Now, that is a large scale example but how is that different than the Ingram Mac 10 I brought in the same year that is now worth 10 times what I paid for it.

Or the primers you bought last month that you sell in Jan for 10 times what you paid.


Tell us, which one is gouging and how, we'll wait.

I'd believe 10x maybe 20x if I'm generous. Unless you sold to Pelosi in San Francisco I find your claim doubtful at best, but I get the point

 

[jmackenzie]

Why yes, you are correct good sir!

No, not even close. They paid the glowing rate
They gladly paid that.


My point of posting was, to encourage others share there stock pile with others. The more reloaders the better. Look out for the next generation.

That's different. I am being asked to sell them at my cost and I am declining.

 

[jmackenzie]

complaining about gougers is not socialism, but a determination of what the market will bear by the invisible hand of the market. Its still pure capitalism.

Socialism, pure and simple. I wish you good shooting comrade.

 

[TTSX]

Socialism, pure and simple. I wish you good shooting comrade.

You'd make a good Fallout NPC. Everything's COMMUNISM

 

[Dozer99]

I'd believe 10x maybe 20x if I'm generous. Unless you sold to Pelosi in San Francisco I find your claim doubtful at best, but I get the point

Bay area.

10x would be 280,000 (could not buy a run down lot for that)

20x would be 560,000 (small house in San Jose with a 1/16 acre lot).

2.8 million for a nice house in Silicone Valley's mountain view.

Nothing to do with San Francisco!

I was making a point about taking profit when you can.

 

[jmackenzie]

You'd make a good Fallout NPC. Everything's COMMUNISM

Communism and socialism are not the same. Communists would have the government take over the ammunition factories, socialists would set the prices that you can charge. I would say the primer price fixers are socialists in this one area, not communists. Ironic though, they probably complain about socialism in every other area, just not when they have to pay more for for primers and ammo.