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As long as the trial will be, thats one I would volunteer to be part of. Mostly because I feel I would actually listen the evidence not the Liberal Media and i would provide good discretion.
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Why did Zimmerman have a gun
- Thread Starter DMax
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I was paying attention to all media, the liberals were presenting the facts as they came out but were making Trayvon seem like a young defenseless child. The conservative didn't highlight facts and instead only demonized Trayvon. Pretty sad in my opinion.
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Ok. This is from the Orlando Sentinel. They've provided pretty objective and comprehensive reporting on this. After the mandatory 15 second commercial, listen to the first words said. They are clearly, "Sanford Police Department. This line is being recorded." A little research helps before saying, "They never do that.". <broken link removed>
In response to previous comments, a new paragraph is now being added.
.
This is apparently standard practice, since the same announcement is made by a different operator/dispatcher in a precious call by Zimmerman. Again, the woman comes on the line with "Sanford Police Department. This line is being recorded.". <broken link removed>
The question I have is whether Zimmerman is calling 911 or calling the non-emergency police number that would place him in contact with the Sandord Police Department. I'd that is the case, his call would go directly to the police dispatchers on duty.
When I'm in the field in my job for Washington County or for my contract work with Multnomah County, I frequently request police backup when visiting a residence of mentally ill individuals or elderly demented persons. As the tragedy out in Columbia County recently proved, going in alone can go terribly bad. When I do that, I call Washington County Dispatch at 503-629-0111 or Portland Police Non-Emergency at 503-823-3333. When I do, I'm talking with the actual dispatcher.
If that's the same sort of local number Zimmerman called in his area, they would answer as they did, "Sanford Police Department.". If he'd called 911 enough times for non-emergent situations, it's entirely possible he would have been instructed to use the non-emergency number instead. Abuse of 911 enough times will result in exactly that action.
Still, he clearly knew he was talking in both the above instances with someone identifying themselves as official representatives of the Sanford Police Department. If this isn't enough proof of what I reported earlier, I don't know what is. The argument about him choosing to remain involved past the point a reasonable individual would do so remains the salient argument in his prosecution.
Again, this is my opinion. If you want to argue with the premise, that's exactly the type of interchange that these discussion forums are for. But check your facts first. That's what makes the discussion meaningful instead of turning it into an uninformed rant.
I hope the paragraphs helped.
In response to previous comments, a new paragraph is now being added.
. This is apparently standard practice, since the same announcement is made by a different operator/dispatcher in a precious call by Zimmerman. Again, the woman comes on the line with "Sanford Police Department. This line is being recorded.". <broken link removed>
The question I have is whether Zimmerman is calling 911 or calling the non-emergency police number that would place him in contact with the Sandord Police Department. I'd that is the case, his call would go directly to the police dispatchers on duty.
When I'm in the field in my job for Washington County or for my contract work with Multnomah County, I frequently request police backup when visiting a residence of mentally ill individuals or elderly demented persons. As the tragedy out in Columbia County recently proved, going in alone can go terribly bad. When I do that, I call Washington County Dispatch at 503-629-0111 or Portland Police Non-Emergency at 503-823-3333. When I do, I'm talking with the actual dispatcher.
If that's the same sort of local number Zimmerman called in his area, they would answer as they did, "Sanford Police Department.". If he'd called 911 enough times for non-emergent situations, it's entirely possible he would have been instructed to use the non-emergency number instead. Abuse of 911 enough times will result in exactly that action.
Still, he clearly knew he was talking in both the above instances with someone identifying themselves as official representatives of the Sanford Police Department. If this isn't enough proof of what I reported earlier, I don't know what is. The argument about him choosing to remain involved past the point a reasonable individual would do so remains the salient argument in his prosecution.
Again, this is my opinion. If you want to argue with the premise, that's exactly the type of interchange that these discussion forums are for. But check your facts first. That's what makes the discussion meaningful instead of turning it into an uninformed rant.
I hope the paragraphs helped.
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For all the martin supporters..... You come across as though you wished martin had beat Zimmerman to death.
When has it become acceptable to turn around , go back , find the man that was following you and beat there head into the sidewalk ?????
A lot of people say Zimmerman could have prevented this by staying in his car. Yes he could have. MAYBE. There no way to know if Martin may have tried to car jack Zimmerman. Fact is we don't know what Martin was capable of.
At 17 and a football player he could have simply out run Zimmerman and would still be alive today. Or he could have acted like a decent young adult when he talked to Zimmerman while wating for the police and he would be alive today.
Instead he acted like a common thug and now he's dead and Zimmerman will be very lucky if he doesn't go to prison.
When has it become acceptable to turn around , go back , find the man that was following you and beat there head into the sidewalk ?????
A lot of people say Zimmerman could have prevented this by staying in his car. Yes he could have. MAYBE. There no way to know if Martin may have tried to car jack Zimmerman. Fact is we don't know what Martin was capable of.
At 17 and a football player he could have simply out run Zimmerman and would still be alive today. Or he could have acted like a decent young adult when he talked to Zimmerman while wating for the police and he would be alive today.
Instead he acted like a common thug and now he's dead and Zimmerman will be very lucky if he doesn't go to prison.
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I'm not a Martin supporter. What I'm a supporter of is informed discourse. I said the Orlando Sentinel was objective. They are. They were one of the first to publicly show the graphic nature of Zimmerman's injuries which were NOT superficial as was first claimed. I think that in the end, however it came about, Zimmerman and Martin were in a struggle in which Zimmerman turned to his PF-9 because he was having his head handed to him by a young, strong kid. But in terms of how we, as armed citizens, should handle ourselves in similar situations, I think that we absolutely have to have the discussion on how Zimmerman might have avoided that situation and, by so doing, gone on to live a productive and happy life without the probable disaster it will be from this point on. Regardless of the outcome, he'll never really get his life back. If it goes badly for him, the life he has now will be essentially gone. I find that a tragedy. I also have it within me to find it a tragedy that Martin is dead. We don't really know how his life might turn out. We never will. All of those things need to be kept in mind when we discuss this.
But, all of that aside, all of us who carry a firearm with us may someday find ourselves making decisions in a similar situation, each of which sets us down a path that we may or may not be able to return from. That's why defensive firearm classes don't just stress how to effectively terminate someone. They teach you how to make decisions; what decision to make in a given situation; how to maintain an active awareness of the situation, your alternatives, and how to constantly practice a self-critical approach in decision making. That's what I'm writing about here, based on the patterns I see in the evidence available to me. Take Zimmerman's past history out of the equation. Do the same with Martin's. Then flow chart out what we know happened and look at each decision point along the way. What were the options? What did Zimmerman do? What didn't he do that was also available to him?
In the end, though, two people ended up in extremely close proximity to each other and a struggle ensued. Who started it? We don't really know? Who struck the first blow or made first contact? We don't know. When did Zimmerman first show his weapon? We don't know. What we know is that Zimmerman probably decided based on the situation that he had no other option but to shoot Martin. If you look at that question alone, it probably was a justifiable decision. But legally, that's not how it works. The prosecution will go at him exactly like I laid out. What were the decision points that Zimmerman, as a legally armed citizen responsible for his own conduct and decision making, made along the path that put him in confrontation with someone who was unarmed, when Zimmerman knew that police were already enroute? And as much as I feel for him, they'll eat him alive. The legal system isn't called "adversarial" for no reason. The prosecution looks on him as an adversary and they'll go after him with, pardon the pun, both guns blazing.
My real concern in all of this isn't Zimmerman. Or Martin. It's us. All of us on this forum, whether Democrats or Republicans, Conservatives or Liberals, likely all share the belief that the Second Amendment is sacrosanct. We believe that those who argue for strict gun control are naive and misdirected. We believe that we are safer when we have our firearms with us than when we're forced to leave them at home, lock them up in the trunk, or only allowed to have them if we keep them disassembled and not available when we need them.
You can rest assured that the gun control people are already frothing at the mouth waiting for the actual trial to ensue and the questions and details to emerge. They're the ones who will portray people who conceal carry as vigilantes looking for a chance to unleash hell. They're the ones who will be on the Hill in Washington and in the various state legislatures arguing for even greater restrictions on being allowed to carry concealed. They're the enemies. Not us. And I think we should perhaps keep that in mind when we read through all of this. My dad was a football coach. A great football coach. I heard him give this little speech to all his teams, including the three years I played for him. "You may want to beat the crap out of the guy when you're in school, but once you suit up you have to think of him as your best friend, brother in arms, for two halves of football. Hell, you can even hate him during halftime. But on the field, if you really want to win, all of that goes away." He won a lot of football games. I think his guidance would be well considered as we discuss this, which is essentially a tragedy regardless of how you look at it.
But, all of that aside, all of us who carry a firearm with us may someday find ourselves making decisions in a similar situation, each of which sets us down a path that we may or may not be able to return from. That's why defensive firearm classes don't just stress how to effectively terminate someone. They teach you how to make decisions; what decision to make in a given situation; how to maintain an active awareness of the situation, your alternatives, and how to constantly practice a self-critical approach in decision making. That's what I'm writing about here, based on the patterns I see in the evidence available to me. Take Zimmerman's past history out of the equation. Do the same with Martin's. Then flow chart out what we know happened and look at each decision point along the way. What were the options? What did Zimmerman do? What didn't he do that was also available to him?
In the end, though, two people ended up in extremely close proximity to each other and a struggle ensued. Who started it? We don't really know? Who struck the first blow or made first contact? We don't know. When did Zimmerman first show his weapon? We don't know. What we know is that Zimmerman probably decided based on the situation that he had no other option but to shoot Martin. If you look at that question alone, it probably was a justifiable decision. But legally, that's not how it works. The prosecution will go at him exactly like I laid out. What were the decision points that Zimmerman, as a legally armed citizen responsible for his own conduct and decision making, made along the path that put him in confrontation with someone who was unarmed, when Zimmerman knew that police were already enroute? And as much as I feel for him, they'll eat him alive. The legal system isn't called "adversarial" for no reason. The prosecution looks on him as an adversary and they'll go after him with, pardon the pun, both guns blazing.
My real concern in all of this isn't Zimmerman. Or Martin. It's us. All of us on this forum, whether Democrats or Republicans, Conservatives or Liberals, likely all share the belief that the Second Amendment is sacrosanct. We believe that those who argue for strict gun control are naive and misdirected. We believe that we are safer when we have our firearms with us than when we're forced to leave them at home, lock them up in the trunk, or only allowed to have them if we keep them disassembled and not available when we need them.
You can rest assured that the gun control people are already frothing at the mouth waiting for the actual trial to ensue and the questions and details to emerge. They're the ones who will portray people who conceal carry as vigilantes looking for a chance to unleash hell. They're the ones who will be on the Hill in Washington and in the various state legislatures arguing for even greater restrictions on being allowed to carry concealed. They're the enemies. Not us. And I think we should perhaps keep that in mind when we read through all of this. My dad was a football coach. A great football coach. I heard him give this little speech to all his teams, including the three years I played for him. "You may want to beat the crap out of the guy when you're in school, but once you suit up you have to think of him as your best friend, brother in arms, for two halves of football. Hell, you can even hate him during halftime. But on the field, if you really want to win, all of that goes away." He won a lot of football games. I think his guidance would be well considered as we discuss this, which is essentially a tragedy regardless of how you look at it.
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A high school teacher told me that my righs ends just before the next fellows nose . I'm now 55 and have never been to jail. I'd say that's good advice.
Ok. This is from the Orlando Sentinel. They've provided pretty objective and comprehensive reporting on this. After the mandatory 15 second commercial, listen to the first words said. They are clearly, "Sanford Police Department. This line is being recorded." A little research helps before saying, "They never do that.". <broken link removed>
In response to previous comments, a new paragraph is now being added.
This is apparently standard practice, since the same announcement is made by a different operator/dispatcher in a precious call by Zimmerman. Again, the woman comes on the line with "Sanford Police Department. This line is being recorded.". <broken link removed>
The question I have is whether Zimmerman is calling 911 or calling the non-emergency police number that would place him in contact with the Sandord Police Department. I'd that is the case, his call would go directly to the police dispatchers on duty.
When I'm in the field in my job for Washington County or for my contract work with Multnomah County, I frequently request police backup when visiting a residence of mentally ill individuals or elderly demented persons. As the tragedy out in Columbia County recently proved, going in alone can go terribly bad. When I do that, I call Washington County Dispatch at 503-629-0111 or Portland Police Non-Emergency at 503-823-3333. When I do, I'm talking with the actual dispatcher.
If that's the same sort of local number Zimmerman called in his area, they would answer as they did, "Sanford Police Department.". If he'd called 911 enough times for non-emergent situations, it's entirely possible he would have been instructed to use the non-emergency number instead. Abuse of 911 enough times will result in exactly that action.
Still, he clearly knew he was talking in both the above instances with someone identifying themselves as official representatives of the Sanford Police Department. If this isn't enough proof of what I reported earlier, I don't know what is. The argument about him choosing to remain involved past the point a reasonable individual would do so remains the salient argument in his prosecution.
Again, this is my opinion. If you want to argue with the premise, that's exactly the type of interchange that these discussion forums are for. But check your facts first. That's what makes the discussion meaningful instead of turning it into an uninformed rant.
I hope the paragraphs helped.
you are right it was probably not a 911 call,altho oregon 911 will transfer you to the state police.
My lifelong friend who is a 2 decade Seattle police officer recommends if I'm ever involved in a self defense shooting, simply state, "He was going to kill me." And then SHUT UP.
Tell the police that you will not be making any statements until you've spoken to an attorney. Any sane attorney will then tell you to never talk to the police under any circumstances.
Tell the police that you will not be making any statements until you've spoken to an attorney. Any sane attorney will then tell you to never talk to the police under any circumstances.
Ive heard several people state that Martin was smashing his head into the sidewalk. I had a friend pass away from being punched and hitting his head on the sidewalk i dont know about all you guys but white, black, brown whatever ethnicity i would consider that being brutally attacked and possible mean of drawing my firearm. Ive seen several 17 year olds that are much much much larger then myself and im 6'2, 220lbs. Just cause hes a minor doesnt mean he doesnt have the physical capacity to beat someone to death with his bare hands.just my opinion.
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You're absolutely right. In the real world, 58 is most definitely not greater than 18. I'm 58, by the way.
Regardless of the outcome of the trial, if he could replay that evening over again Zimmerman would not have gotten out of his car with a gun. That simple fact transcends guilt or innocence in this case. There is a lesson in that fact for all of us who own and carry.
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I carry the PF-9 and it is a nice light carry gun that never has misfired or stove piped. HP's in it and it will hold it's own with some up scale fancier model if attacked.
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As a neighborhood watch volunteer, I just don't see how he was out of place to watch out for the community, even if it meant confronting Martin.. Why should we always depend on the police to save us? Yeah, he made a stupid decision, but I don't think he was entirely out of place. He was, more-or-less a community security guard and was performing his duty to keep the community safe from what he saw as a threat. Considering Martin had no injury to his face or body (as a result of being beaten), it shows that Zimmerman didn't just go up to him and start pounding him. Most likely he didn't pull a gun on him either, as that would have resulted in Martin being shot right away or a struggle would have ensued for the gun, which Martin very likely would have won if Zimmerman didn't shoot him first. It sounds like Martin got angry that he was being followed by Neighborhood Watch and got his feelings hurt. If he truly was scared for his life he would have either ran away or told the guy to leave him alone or ask what his business was. Zimmerman most likely would have started talking to him and tell him why he was following him, ask where he lives, etc. Instead, he wanted to be a tough guy and beat the person to death because he didn't like that he was being profiled and watched.
I'm sorry, but he was pounding the Neighborhood Watch's head into the pavement. If anything, I hope Zimmerman sues Martin's family in civil court for damages incurred from trial, loss of work, protection programs, mental treatment that he will now need throughout the rest of his life.
The only reason this has made national/international news is that a white guy shot a black guy who didn't have a gun.
What didn't make national news was the 17-year old African American male who shot to death two English tourists in Sarasota, FL a year before the Trayvon Martin incident. They were shot dead many say so the African American kid could get special status in his gang. Where's Jessie Jackson and all the bleeding hearts to cry over the dead bodies of the two murdered English foreigners murdered in cold-blood, not self-defense. Personally, I am so sick of this Trayvon Case and it is just more food for a greedy, slimy media to suck in gullible people to keep their revenue flowing.
I want Justice for James Cooper, 25, and James Kouzaris, 24..
Instead of persecuting George Zimmerman for defending his life, lets focus our efforts at putting Shawn Tyson in prison for life, or even better in the gas chamber/lethal injection room where he belongs for murdering these two men in cold blood.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-Cooper-James-Kouzaris-Sarasota-Florida.html
I think a new thread should be started on this issue. Why did Shawn Tyson have a gun and the two Englishman not have one?
But who cares about white people murdered by a black person, that doesn't sell in the news and you don't have all the bleeding heart liberals wanting to have marches or parades down the street for that. Reminds me of the Oakland police officers who were gunned down by an African American guy and it was mentioned a couple days in the news compared to the weeks and months about the black guy who was accidentally shot while resisting arrest in Oakland. They thrashed the downtown of Oakland with riots and looting for that one. No such thing for the cops who were massacred in cold blood.
BTW.. I really didn't want to include race in this debate at all, but what can you do, when that really is the issue at hand? Everyone attacks Zimmerman for profiling Martin because he was black. In reality, all the racist, liberal world was profiling Zimmerman because he was white. Now that the facts are coming to the surface and the truth is being exposed, these same people are realizing it is they who are the real racists, not Zimmerman.
I'm sorry, but he was pounding the Neighborhood Watch's head into the pavement. If anything, I hope Zimmerman sues Martin's family in civil court for damages incurred from trial, loss of work, protection programs, mental treatment that he will now need throughout the rest of his life.
The only reason this has made national/international news is that a white guy shot a black guy who didn't have a gun.
What didn't make national news was the 17-year old African American male who shot to death two English tourists in Sarasota, FL a year before the Trayvon Martin incident. They were shot dead many say so the African American kid could get special status in his gang. Where's Jessie Jackson and all the bleeding hearts to cry over the dead bodies of the two murdered English foreigners murdered in cold-blood, not self-defense. Personally, I am so sick of this Trayvon Case and it is just more food for a greedy, slimy media to suck in gullible people to keep their revenue flowing.
I want Justice for James Cooper, 25, and James Kouzaris, 24..
Instead of persecuting George Zimmerman for defending his life, lets focus our efforts at putting Shawn Tyson in prison for life, or even better in the gas chamber/lethal injection room where he belongs for murdering these two men in cold blood.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-Cooper-James-Kouzaris-Sarasota-Florida.html
I think a new thread should be started on this issue. Why did Shawn Tyson have a gun and the two Englishman not have one?
But who cares about white people murdered by a black person, that doesn't sell in the news and you don't have all the bleeding heart liberals wanting to have marches or parades down the street for that. Reminds me of the Oakland police officers who were gunned down by an African American guy and it was mentioned a couple days in the news compared to the weeks and months about the black guy who was accidentally shot while resisting arrest in Oakland. They thrashed the downtown of Oakland with riots and looting for that one. No such thing for the cops who were massacred in cold blood.
BTW.. I really didn't want to include race in this debate at all, but what can you do, when that really is the issue at hand? Everyone attacks Zimmerman for profiling Martin because he was black. In reality, all the racist, liberal world was profiling Zimmerman because he was white. Now that the facts are coming to the surface and the truth is being exposed, these same people are realizing it is they who are the real racists, not Zimmerman.
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I agree that it seems the media and the public have a double standard .
I feel for Zimmerman because he tried to do what he thought was right and he was responding to inadequate legal support on past incidents and wanted justice. Today, his life is ruinned over it.
I never heard anything about the white tourist killing. Certainly not on cable news and the the "peace nik" crowd that shake in fear at the name "Gun" ? That is awful but I now can see why they quieted it down being just after Trayvon and the same state with mixed race participants. Dynamite situation with all the uproar building over the first case and indignation over a poor black boy being harrassed by a grown hateful man with a gun and on the hunt for his kind ? Jeeeez......
The state attorney only got involved for political expediency and lots of pressure to calm it down.
I think perhaps manslughter at most for Zimmerman would be fair ? If they exonerate him the blacks will probably riot like in Watts. Many Libs won't do that, they just wring their hands and scream unjust! Taking to the streets is not their style except for the youth activist.
My 2 cents!
I feel for Zimmerman because he tried to do what he thought was right and he was responding to inadequate legal support on past incidents and wanted justice. Today, his life is ruinned over it.
I never heard anything about the white tourist killing. Certainly not on cable news and the the "peace nik" crowd that shake in fear at the name "Gun" ? That is awful but I now can see why they quieted it down being just after Trayvon and the same state with mixed race participants. Dynamite situation with all the uproar building over the first case and indignation over a poor black boy being harrassed by a grown hateful man with a gun and on the hunt for his kind ? Jeeeez......
The state attorney only got involved for political expediency and lots of pressure to calm it down.
I think perhaps manslughter at most for Zimmerman would be fair ? If they exonerate him the blacks will probably riot like in Watts. Many Libs won't do that, they just wring their hands and scream unjust! Taking to the streets is not their style except for the youth activist.
My 2 cents!
The really sad part is how the media is spinning out the limited information and ignoring others, catering to their audience. I have a pretty wide spectrum of friends from school, and almost down the line they are siding with their race. I didn't know anything about the case until they all started posting about it on FB.
I think the media should be put on trial the way they are respooling this country up and dividing us. I get the feeling of another Rodney King situation unfolding.
How rediculous will it be that even if "proven innocent" the jury decides to hand down a sentence because it is best for the community so there is no riots etc?
I think the media should be put on trial the way they are respooling this country up and dividing us. I get the feeling of another Rodney King situation unfolding.
How rediculous will it be that even if "proven innocent" the jury decides to hand down a sentence because it is best for the community so there is no riots etc?
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- Thread Starter
- #96
More like Duke LaCrosse Case
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Why did Zimmerman have a gun? What a silly question. Why do I have one, or any of the rest of us? We WANT one. That's enough reason.
I have had a carry permit for over 15 years now, and if I ever chose to participate in a neighbohood watch, I would give serious consideration to not being armed. The potential liability could very well outweigh the benefit. Getting out of his car with his gun after being told by the 911 dispatcher not to do so was a mistake on Zimmermans part. I'm not saying it was a mistake that warrants criminal charges, but it was a mistake nontheless. He placed himself and his gun in a situation that he had the ability to avoid. Even if he is ultimately acquitted of all charges....and based upon the knowledge that I have I think he should be....his life has been effectively ruined and I gurantee you that if he had the ability to go back in time and replay that evening he would have made a different choice.
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OPINION ONLY - This situation is idiocy squared - Martin x Zimmerman = Tragedy
From what I've read and as more facts come out my opinion is subject to change - My .02
Zimmerman - It's neighborhood "watch" not neighborhood "confront." Martin - Respond and act like a thug and get treated like a thug.
If I might speculate pride had a lot to do with both men - Zimmerman's pride with "I'll handle this" and Martin's pride with "It's none of your business."
From what I've read and as more facts come out my opinion is subject to change - My .02
Zimmerman - It's neighborhood "watch" not neighborhood "confront." Martin - Respond and act like a thug and get treated like a thug.
If I might speculate pride had a lot to do with both men - Zimmerman's pride with "I'll handle this" and Martin's pride with "It's none of your business."
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The Duke Lacrosse case showed AL ( NOT TO SHARP ) Sharpton up for the racist clown he really is.
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