Why a 9mm over .40 S&W?

[mjbskwim]

Please just stop now




Or should we have one for every page of this thread.

 

[MilesTeg]

Gotta smack that pony...


"Why a 9mm over .40 S&W?"

Answer: Because if it isn't a .45 then it doesn't really matter what you choose.

 

[titsonritz]

Regarding the multiple posts about the infamous LA shootout, I doubt the .357 mag or 40 S&W would have made any difference what-so-ever. Furthermore while the acquisitioned AR-15s allegedly saved the day I would have preferred (and I believe savvy cops would have too) a 375 H&H or similar capable round. But that is a far cry from a 9mm over 40 S&W topic.

 

[kenno]

I'll stick with my 9
This @100 meassured yards off hand

 

[Riot]

Regarding the multiple posts about the infamous LA shootout, I doubt the .357 mag or 40 S&W would have made any difference what-so-ever. Furthermore while the acquisitioned AR-15s allegedly saved the day I would have preferred (and I believe savvy cops would have too) a 375 H&H or similar capable round. But that is a far cry from a 9mm over 40 S&W topic.

First of all...I will have to say that my response to this reply will be speculation. We can only speculate as to what may or may not have happened if we adjust any of the conditions. All we can do is point out the facts and theorize what may have been different that would have change an outcome.

So, having said that...lets go through some of the facts as to why I specifically brought up the North Hollywood Shootout to make a 9mm vs .40 S&W case.

At least one SWAT officer fired his M16 rifle below the cars and wounded Mătăsăreanu in his unprotected lower legs; he was soon unable to continue and desperately put his hands up twice to show surrender. The police radioed for an ambulance, but Mătăsăreanu, cursing, died before the ambulance reached the scene almost seventy minutes later. Later reports showed that Mătăsăreanu was shot 29 times in the shins and feet and died from trauma due to loss of blood

So here we have one instance where one of the shooters was found to have been shot several times in the legs and feet, but still able to continue.

At 9:51 Phillips, who had been using the getaway vehicle as cover, split from Mătăsăreanu, turned east on Archwood Street, took cover behind a parked truck, and continued to fire at the police with his AKM. He reloaded the assault rifle with a 75-round drum magazine, but the gun suffered a malfunction. He promptly discarded the AKM rather than removing the shell casing that had caused the "stovepipe" malfunction as his wrist was injured from a gunshot that had penetrated his wrist bone, after it deflected off the gun's casing and through his thumb. He drew a Beretta 92FS pistol and continued firing at police. He was then shot in the right hand again, briefly dropped the pistol, retrieved it, and placed the muzzle of his pistol under his chin and shot himself; a round from a police officer's AR-15 simultaneously severed his spine.

Here, we have the other shooter was shot in the wrist but had difficulty clearing the malfunction out of his rifle, but still able to shoot it and his pistol.

Nobody here is arguing that they were wearing body armor. Nobody is arguing that neither a 9mm or a 44 mag would have done any good against the armor. So, why did a reference this particular shooting? Because these two nut jobs shot up a lot of people and got hit in non critical areas, but still managed to "stay in the fight."

So, here I will begin to speculate (just as others have by stating the AR-15 saved the day, and not the SWAT advanced training, tactics, teamwork, and skill combined with the lethality of their weaponry).

Lets just say, for a minute, that all the officers had .40 S&W pistols rather than 9mm pistols. Lets say that the LAPD decided to get the Beretta 96D over the 92FS. Would Mătăsăreanu still have been able to walk after being shot in the shin and foot? Would Phillips still have been able to operate his AKM and pistol? We'll never know...but what we do know is that Mătăsăreanu did manage to still walk and Phillips did manage to shoot his rifle and pistol after being shot several times with 9mm bullets.

I cannot speculate if the .40 would have been for the better. But we know the 9mm didn't do well enough.

 

[fd15k]

+1 for .40.

 

[Boats]

I cannot speculate if the .40 would have been for the better. But we know the 9mm didn't do well enough.

What rubbish. Was the 9mm supposed to blow his hand off? Would the .40 have blown it off? As things stood, a hail of 9mm caused the perps to retreat and did take the AKM out of the fight due to the inability of the shooter to operate it any longer.

Once again, the 9mm is being scapegoated for bad tactics. I don't care what pistol you bring to an automatic rifle fight, you aren't going on the offensive if the riflemen know anything at all about suppressing their opposition.

Had the LAPD shown up with any longarms at all, heck even a few Beretta CX4 9mm carbines, or shotguns loaded with Foster slugs, or a couple of designated patrol rifles in the trunks of shift commanders then you have a much different firefight. The officers would have still been mismatched against the full auto drum packing AKMs, but they would have gained some range from which to fight back. The limitations of all handguns in all calibers against targets behind effective cover or body armor is the lack of practical accuracy at longer ranges due to their handheld nature and lack of sight radius. Even a scoped 9mm PCC would allow its operator to hang back up to 100m and try to hit the perps in the face.

Using the N. Hollywood shootout to excoriate the 9mm is silly. That fight really demonstrates the inadequacy involved in fighting riflemen while only armed with pistols.

 

[Riot]

What rubbish. Was the 9mm supposed to blow his hand off? Would the .40 have blown it off?

I would like to think that if I shot someone in the hand they wouldn't be able to use it for a while. Not just drop his pistol, then pick it back up again and still be able to shoot it.

I don't care what pistol you bring to an automatic rifle fight, you aren't going on the offensive if the riflemen know anything at all about suppressing their opposition.

This wasn't a 9mm vs AKM argument. It was a 9mm vs two subject argument. What could be said is that since their vital areas were blocked, we couldn't see the full effect of the 9mm on the human body and I'm doing it a disservice. But these individuals were shot in the hand and legs then acted as if nothing happened.

Using the N. Hollywood shootout to excoriate the 9mm is silly.

Can you give us an instance where the 9mm prevailed over the .40?

Ever looked up why the US military switched to the .45 ACP, M1911 over the Colt M1892 in .38 Long Colt?

In response to problems encountered by American units fighting Moro guerrillas during the Philippine-American War, the then-standard Colt M1892 revolver, in .38 Long Colt, was found to be unsuitable for the rigors of jungle warfare, particularly in terms of stopping power, as the Moros had very high battle morale and frequently used drugs to inhibit the sensation of pain. The U.S. Army briefly reverted to using the M1873 single-action revolver in .45 Colt caliber, which had been standard during the last decades of the 19th century; the heavier bullet was found to be more effective against charging tribesmen. The problems with the .38 Long Colt led to the Army shipping new single action .45 Colt revolvers to the Philippines in 1902. It also prompted the then-Chief of Ordnance, General William Crozier, to authorize further testing for a new service pistol.

M1911 pistol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Gunner3456]

Can you give us an instance where the 9mm prevailed over the .40?

Yeah, I can't find the link right now but two guys shot at each other, one with a 9mm and the other with a .40. The two JHP bullets collided mid-air and the 9mm was found stuck fully into the .40. The two bullets dropped straight down. The .40 died from the penetration.

/Joking.

 

[locobob]

Yeah, I can't find the link right now but two guys shot at each other, one with a 9mm and the other with a .40. The two JHP bullets collided mid-air and the 9mm was found stuck fully into the .40. The two bullets dropped straight down. The .40 died from the penetration.

/Joking.

Mythbusters???

 

[Boats]

I would like to think that if I shot someone in the hand they wouldn't be able to use it for a while. Not just drop his pistol, then pick it back up again and still be able to shoot it.

Heck, I'd like to think SIX hits from your vaunted .40 would not require a perp wearing a DOWN JACKET as armor to be shot eleven more times with 5.56x45, but it happened.

<broken link removed>

Here's a big bright neon clue for you: ALL HANDGUNS SUCK AS FIGHT STOPPERS! They are carried for convenience, and not for their "death ray" abilities. They are dependent almost entirely upon shot placement for whatever combat effectiveness they have.

I have shot a 185 pound mule deer through the lungs, a classic COM shot, from 45m with a .30-06 and it RAN AWAY nearly 600 yards. Good thing we dropped that round after Korea for something ultimately smaller and faster, eh?

 

[Riot]

Heck, I'd like to think SIX hits from your vaunted .40 would not require a perp wearing a DOWN JACKET as armor to be shot eleven more times with 5.56x45, but it happened.

<broken link removed>

Here's a big bright neon clue for you: ALL HANDGUNS SUCK AS FIGHT STOPPERS! They are carried for convenience, and not for their "death ray" abilities. They are dependent almost entirely upon shot placement for whatever combat effectiveness they have.

I have shot a 185 pound mule deer through the lungs, a classic COM shot, from 45m with a .30-06 and it RAN AWAY nearly 600 yards. Good thing we dropped that round after Korea for something ultimately smaller and faster, eh?

So you agree that bigger calibers are better?

 

[Chipperxd]

If somebody is beating my door down at o'dark-thirty, it's the rifle I'm going to grab first, not a pistol.

Pistols are great, if you don't have a real gun.

H

ok thanks capt obvious. the OP didn't ask about a rifle. he asked about a handgun caliber. thanks for playing though.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

9mm > 40 s&w

 

[Boats]

So you agree that bigger calibers are better?

Nope. I have 9mms, .38 Specials, .357 Magnums, .45 ACPs, and a .44 Magnum. They all have a few things in common:

Their calibers have all "won" gunfights.
Their calibers have all "lost" gunfights.
They all suck compared to having a .12 gauge shotgun or a service caliber rifle in a gunfight.
They are all compromises of bullet diameter, bullet weight, bullet speed, recoil, and shooting speed.

If you want to champion a handgun caliber over others as the "one true sword," go ahead. Just remember to have fun while you're playing the fool.

 

[deadeye]

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