Where to get training in Israeli method of carry

northk · Feb 27, 2012

Greetings all,

I'm wondering where in Oregon one could get training in the Israeli method of carry? This is: carry in condition 3, draw, rack slide, fire. For more background, see The Thinking Gunfighter: THE MYTHS OF THE ISRAELI METHOD OF CARRY, or why carrying chamber empty isn't so bad.

Thanks.

Asp · Feb 27, 2012

Buy a revolver, problem solved.

I don't need to say anymore since a comment on the blog you posted more or less covered my opinion.

As for general safety, you bring up many excellent points. Condition 3 is certainly administratively safer, although I still dispute the assumption that most situations will allow for racking the slide on the draw stroke. I simply don't think the statistics support that assumption for people who carry concealed in public.

billdeserthills · Feb 27, 2012

Oh Oh, I wanna say the loud funny words too
A trip to Israel may be in your future
ibtl

strongtower6114 · Feb 27, 2012

1. Adding an extra step to an already difficult under pressure 5 step process does nothing but complicate matters and slow down deployment. K.I.S.S.

2. If your off hand is occupied (holding a two year old or incapacitated by GSW), you cannot draw and rack one handed well enough for it to be deemed combat effective. Period.

3. Having to clear a malfunction one handed and drawing and racking with one hand are two seperate issues. Clearing a ftf means you most likely got off at least one round. Infinitely better than zero rounds.

4. Condition three carry was used for two reasons: for old guns that might randomly go off, or for people with no training and no time to train them. We have plenty of safe guns that will not randomly go off, and you are not required to be dropped behind enemy lines in 2 weeks to fight ze germans. Plenty of good guns and good training. No excuses there.

5. The military only rarely used condition three, and then only in peacetime under certain conditions. Military service (WWII excluded) doesn't train this way.

6. FACT: NO LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OR COMBAT MILITARY UNIT EMPLOYS THIS METHOD. There is a reason why.

7. A guard working for DHS was just fired because he refused to carry condition one in a duty holster.

8. "Mexican carry" is not appropriate, using condition three to justify doing so is pure and unadultered laziness.

9. Finally, for smaller capacity autos, condition three cuts one round off from your optimal load. For a glock 17, thats 17 vs 18 rounds. For a 1911, it means 7 vs 8 rounds.

Honestly, just buy a decent holster and gun and practice with them. It's so much easier and more effective.

PBinWA · Feb 27, 2012

The Condition One Camp will be all over this thread whether you asked for their opinion or not.

I don't know any places that teach this method but I haven't looked either. Lot's of practice is probably your best course of action.

Otherwise, the blog post you linked to was well done.

xm193 · Feb 27, 2012

i would carry anyway you feel comfortable and i frequently carry a 1920s vintage colt detective special with empty chamber and a glock 19 in the same condition.

aslinged · Feb 27, 2012

There's really not much to this method other than tilting the slide to about a 45 degree angle toward your off side midway through the drawstroke. Then it's just snapping the slide slingshot style and gaining your two hand grip. It's all in that tilt, otherwise it's just practice. Save your money.

RedneckRampage · Feb 27, 2012

Have fun racking the slide while trying to fight somebody off, that has a hold of you.

Redcap · Feb 27, 2012

An unloaded gun is nothing more than a club. Israeli carry is very, very stupid.

gunnails · Feb 27, 2012

Seems to me this is something worth while to consider.

RVTECH · Feb 27, 2012

Typically I do not enter debates but I tend to agree with the Myths On Why Carrying Chamber Empty Isn't So Bad. For me the points made outweigh the arguments for a loaded chamber. The recent death of the Church Pastor's daughter would never have happened (regardless of training) if the chamber had been empty. The two times in my life I have had to draw (first was with a G17 and 2nd was with a 1911) I almost surprised myself with how smoothly and easily I drew, racked and stayed on target. And just to be fair the first was due to a loud scratching noise on my back door at night and the gun was drawn from the nightstand and the second with the 1911 while OC holstered on a charging Rott while in the woods. No shots fired either time.

strongtower6114 · Feb 27, 2012

DRAWING:

1. Clear concealing garment
2. Grip pistol
3. Clear holster
4. Rock pistol to forward position
5. Extend to meet support hand while disengaging safety if applicable

Adding the extra step of racking the slide does two things:

1. Adds 6th step to process. Drawing can never be too fast, so adding more stuff to do makes no sense at all. 5 steps will always be faster than 6 steps, simple laws of physics. Of course practice is a major influence here. If you watch the youtube videos (like the one above), the guy demonstrating how fast israeli method is always does a slow awkward condition one draw in the same amount of time as his smoother condition three draw and rack. With equal practice, condition one draw will always, always, always be faster. Simple logical, mathematical, scientific fact. Keep. It. Stinkin. Simple.

2. Automatically puts you in a disadvantaged position since it requires two hands to be combat effective. Example:
a) My Glock that I carry at work. Draw and engage time at 7 yds or so: Way less than two seconds.
b) Same gun, same situation, same range, etc, etc, etc. With one hand: Exactly the same draw time as two hands.

c)1911 same situation. Draw with two hands from concealment: maybe 2 seconds
d)with one hand: maybe a split second longer since second hand can't help remove covering garment

e)Either of those situations with condition three carry? Add half a second to a second on two hand draws. Add 5 - 10 seconds to one handed.

Remember, if you are drawing, there is a threat. (At least, I hope there is lol

) Drawing is time spent not shooting/ready to be shooting. The less time, actions and potential problems that exist the better.

As I learned in the Marines, if we had a ftf, we had to yell "Weapon down, weapon down, weapon down" while tapping, racking the slide/bolt and then firing. And it's true. A weapon that is not ready to be fired during a threat situation is truly "weapon down." I don't want to have a weapon down situation while engaging the threat, I really really don't want to have a weapon down situation before I have ever been able to engage the threat.

drew · Feb 27, 2012

If it really floats your boat, go for it. I think it adds more complexity.

I might try this when I'm shooting but wouldn't carry this way on a day to day basis.

OFADAN · Feb 27, 2012

.....

RVTECH · Feb 27, 2012

using Simunition or Airsoft.

Do these training aids function like the real counterparts? I have 0 experience with either.

OFADAN · Feb 27, 2012

RVTECH said:
Do these training aids function like the real counterparts? I have 0 experience with either.

RV ,

Simuntions are used in real working firearms which can only chamber a sim round. Higher end Airsoft feel like, weigh like and fully function like real firearms. The manual of arms is exactly the same. The secret is the effectiveness of the actors and how the simulation is administered. Honestly this can be very dangerous if not administered and managed properly. I strongly recommend if one is interested to seek out someone who can run these simulations safely and competently. I would not advise a group of buddies to organize this.

RVTECH · Feb 27, 2012

I would not advise a group of buddies to organize this.

Neither would I - I understand the concept and have expanded experience with firearms and simulation training - just none with the Airsoft equipment.

aslinged · Feb 27, 2012

OFA Dan what's your considered opinion on this Israeli method?

Lange22250 · Feb 27, 2012

So the main argument to this type of carry is that it is good for people who have limited time/ability/resources to train or be trained, and you want to go out of your way to get trained in it.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Two things -
Lots of malfunctions are induced when loading the firearm, from either improperly seating the mag or not racking the slide properly and you want that potential when drawing your firearm when you really need it.

How are you going to quickly get the gun in the fight when your non-dominant hand is otherwise occupied or disabled? That alone kills the idea for most thinking people.