When/Where are appropriate places to OC

[glockguy]

OC is Good.. but some people dont like it... Be prepared to be told to cover your gun or leave a store... but I still oc!

 

[tionico]

Epaget, all due respect, but there was a thread of similar nature here a while back which cited a number of Washington court cases where people had been arrested for OC and charged with "menacing". "brandishing", and the like. In all the cases cited, the armed person had done nothing beyond being in a public place whilst armed. I read the judges' decisions, and it was very plainly stated that the feeling of being threatened at the mere presence of a firearm did not constitute behaviour that is "threatening" or "menacing". The armed party must DO something calling attention to himself, his armed status, and generating some specific reason for bystanders to feel threatened or intimidated.

The amazing thing is one of the judges, a woman, I can't remember her court's location but I think it was a significant city, stated plainly that her personal opinion is that no one should be allowed to go about in public whilst armed..... and yet she applied and interpreted THE LAW in the way I described above. In other words, her judgement in this case, acquittal, was contary to her own personal preferences though well within the existing laws of Washington. Now THERE is a judge worthy of the name, a woman of integrity.

Bottom line... before anyone can be charged with "menacing" or "threatening" one must DO things well beyond merely having a firearm in one's possession. These decisions seem to have set a solid precedent in Washington... I think they were from a number of years ago, and there have not been any such incidents with charges filed since. Seems word got round to the constabulary that mere possession, no matter how much THEY don't like it, isn't an actionable offense. Yay for our side.....

SO-- open carry in Washington, most places, is no legal problem, and, unless you start playing with your piece or coming on in a clearly threatening manner, you will rarely be bothered..... though I've thought about re-finding those court decisions, printing them out, and carrying with me to show an ignorant officer bent on imagining himself a hero.......

 

[nathanh]

Epaget, all due respect, but there was a thread of similar nature here a while back which cited a number of Washington court cases where people had been arrested for OC and charged with "menacing". "brandishing", and the like. In all the cases cited, the armed person had done nothing beyond being in a public place whilst armed. ...

Another interesting thing is that the most cited case, the person was open carrying a semi auto rifle, not a holstered pistol like most open carriers.

 

[MountainBear]

Unfortunately, I think I have to agree too.

CC'ing is great, and I love the idea. But I, personally, don't see how it is "furthering the cause", so to speak. All I see, is it proves to the government that they CAN regulate your right to defend yourself, and once more, people will fall in line.

Gentleman, I am only interested in furthering the cause of better allowing me (and others in our country) to defend ourselves and our families. I carry concealed because I feel it is a responsible way to protect myself and my family while being respectful to those who may be afraid of the sight of a gun. I am not CCing to further any cause beyond my own safety. If you are, then it is my opinion that you need to re-evaluate your priorities.

Owning and carrying a gun isn't a status symbol. Its not a stand in for all the rights our government chooses to withhold and dole out to us at their discretion. Its a tool. Whether you choose to implement it for procuring food, recreating, or defending yourself, it is still a tool, not a symbol. Do not use it as such.

 

[CEF1959]

As usual, Mountain Bear makes some excellent points. I agree that if your reason for carrying is to make a statement, the message received is probably not the message you intended to send.

I do not OC, but that's mostly because I don't feel comfortable being high profile like that in public. I also have a right to free speech that I don't choose to exercise to its fullest every day. And, frankly, I don't want you to know whether I'm armed. When a shooter goes crazy in a McDonalds, who's going to get the first bullet? Me or the guy with the holstered .45 who needs to be neutralized?

The one argument for OC that makes some sense to me is this: If more people were carrying openly, it would acclimatize people to the practice and make it more normal in everyone's mind. In practice, I don't think that's how most non-gun people tend to react. It's more likely to be, "Sheesh, we gotta do something about these gun nuts down at the Safeway. Think I'll write my Congressman." or "Let's go to a different restaurant; remember last time there were those guys with guns." I don't have any empirical evidence of that, so I may be wrong.

 

[MountainBear]

The one argument for OC that makes some sense to me is this: If more people were carrying openly, it would acclimatize people to the practice and make it more normal in everyone's mind. In practice, I don't think that's how most non-gun people tend to react. It's more likely to be, "Sheesh, we gotta do something about these gun nuts down at the Safeway. Think I'll write my Congressman." or "Let's go to a different restaurant; remember last time there were those guys with guns." I don't have any empirical evidence of that, so I may be wrong.

I agree. Both on the way we wish people would respond (the getting used to it idea) and the more likely response of "we need to stop these gun-toting maniacs at the local Safeway." I just feel like instead of making people more used to it and more comfortable with the idea, we are needling a sleeping bull. I like my right to concealed carry in Oregon. We are more free to do it than many other places in this country (both in where we can CC, i.e. no bar or park restrictions, and in the fact we are a "shall-issue" state). I feel that by open carrying in urban areas, we are jeopardizing our right to carry at all (concealed included).

 

[nathanh]

Gentleman, I am only interested in furthering the cause of better allowing me (and others in our country) to defend ourselves and our families. I carry concealed because I feel it is a responsible way to protect myself and my family while being respectful to those who may be afraid of the sight of a gun. I am not CCing to further any cause beyond my own safety. If you are, then it is my opinion that you need to re-evaluate your priorities.

Owning and carrying a gun isn't a status symbol. Its not a stand in for all the rights our government chooses to withhold and dole out to us at their discretion. Its a tool. Whether you choose to implement it for procuring food, recreating, or defending yourself, it is still a tool, not a symbol. Do not use it as such.

You may not be interested in furthering 2A causes, but there are many who work actively to erode our rights. Whether you like it or not there is a war on for the undecided minds. OC shows the undecidedes that guns and people with guns aren't the enemy. The younger generation is being conditioned to associate guns with criminals and I want to do what I can to counter that.

If you don't want to be involved that is your choice but do not denigrate those of us who see the bigger picture.

 

[spengo]

While backpacking, we even open carry M4's.

Really? I want to hear more about this, did anyone hassle you about it? When most people see an AR-15, even people who aren't anti-gun just people who don't know much about guns, they always think it's a full auto machine gun. If you crossed paths with any other hikers they would probably be freaked out.

Also.. can I go with ya next time? Backpacking with an AR sounds fun.

 

[Weathermaker]

I don't take your opinion personally. However, allow me to respond.

Just because something is legal does not make it right or appropriate. Rather I think open carrying in certain venues give ammunition to those who would seek to infringe on our rights. Instead of being concerned citizens who care about the people around us, even the strangers, and doing all we can to maintain our right to carry while respecting their rights not to be made uncomfortable, we are being seen as gun toting gangsters (I liken back to the old mobsters, rather than the modern gang-bangers) or cowboys ready to shoot things up. The urbanization of the US means that we are beyond the point where open carry will become common place again, right or wrong. Even in the old west, in more urban areas, vest guns and pocket guns were the norm (suits being a more common urban thing), rather than belt rigs and Winchesters. I'm sure men still carried in belts, openly, but even then I imagine people looked at them a bit sideways, although certainly not to the extent they do today.

We have the right to keep and to BEAR arms. We do not have the right to impose our beliefs on those around us, nor do we have the right to knowingly and purposefully make those around us uncomfortable. My argument is based on the idea that carrying concealed (some attempt at least) is in good faith with the second amendment. We are still, after all, exercising our right to keep and bear our arms. By concealed carrying rather than open carrying, we have not given up our God-Given rights. We are simply choosing to exercise them in a way that is respectful (not politically correct, after all we still have our guns) to those who do not share our decision to defend ourselves.

When and where CCW is outlawed is where I believe our rights are being infringed on. And that is where I will focus my efforts.

Very well said.

 

[Weathermaker]

Very well said, Bear.

Thank you for not having a horrible attitude like others on this topic.

Another for Bear.

 

[Teufel_Hunden]

Again MB and others just make my point.

This right will be eliminated and sooner if no one excersizes it or fights for it.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

This is not about using a weapon as a status symbol or any other goofy label you can put on it.

This is about a real right that becomes more in jeopardy with each passing day.

 

[MountainBear]

I'm pretty sure its grossly inappropriate and over-exagerated to liken our fight for second amendment rights (and do not misinterpret my dislike and lack of support for open carry to mean that I do not care about nor fight for our 2nd amendment rights) to the political incarceration and the Nazi atrocities to the Jewish population.

Education works better than shock value. And thats what open carry is about to everyone who doesn't own or carry guns. You are not "de-sensitizing" them. You are shocking them. It occurs to me that we should be applying our efforts towards educating the non-gun owning public. Showing them the statistics. Showing them that in areas like Chicago and D.C. the crime rates are significantly higher than in urban areas allowing concealed carry (or any firearms ownership for that matter). We should be showing them that less than 1/2 a percent of concealed carry permit holders are arrested for criminal offenses (even less are actually convicted). We should be INFORMING them as to the truths regarding ownership and carrying of guns, not hoping that the shock they see with some yahoo with two Glocks on his hips will wear off and they'll think its suddenly okay (this was a thread on TheHighRoad a while ago, a guy who open carries a belt rig with twin Glock 21's. And I know this is an extreme example and doesn't represent all of you who choose to open carry).

I disagree with those of you who open carry in urban areas (rural areas are a different discussion). I think it hurts our causes. I think it will eventually lead to erosion of our carry rights. But as of right now, its still your right. But just because its a right, does not make it appropriate. Excellent discussion though.

 

[spengo]

You are not "de-sensitizing" them. You are shocking them.

I never thought about it that way. If you are dressed well and look professional, don't you think most people will just assume you're a cop or other sort of official rather than be freaked out? I can see your point, but I'd still like to try it just to see what happens after I get my license (lol tigard). If I go around with an empty holster after going shooting at the range nobody even gives me a second glance, it is totally ignored.

 

[BlvdKing]

I almost always open carry in the far out woods but thats it. I think open carry gives away all of my advantage and I no longer have the upper hand in a situation where the element of surprise wins the fight. I believe open carry not only paints a bulls eye on your head but is to similar to the traditional British warfare method of marching in formation to engage an opponent.

 

[unionguy]

Slightly off-topic, but I just took my sister-in-law out yesterday to shoot her first firearms...and she loved it. I've now taken, just in the last year, about a half-dozen people out to shoot for their first time...and every single person has enjoyed it. I'm very confident those six people will not fall for anti-gun hysteria now. Because while teaching them, I'm able to explain why I own the guns I do, including "assault rifles". BTW...none of these people were even Republicans...so bringing them in, even just a little, to understand the need for the 2nd Amendment is very worthwhile.

This is an extremely effective tool to educate the public to our cause.

 

[unionguy]

The one argument for OC that makes some sense to me is this: If more people were carrying openly, it would acclimatize people to the practice and make it more normal in everyone's mind. In practice, I don't think that's how most non-gun people tend to react. It's more likely to be, "Sheesh, we gotta do something about these gun nuts down at the Safeway. Think I'll write my Congressman." or "Let's go to a different restaurant; remember last time there were those guys with guns." I don't have any empirical evidence of that, so I may be wrong.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree. "Shock value" cuts both ways. Not the best analogy but people usually either love or hate the various "shock jocks" on radio. I don't think its our best organizing tactic. On most issues 1/3 supports, 1/3 is undecided, and 1/3 is opposed. We need to think about how to win overthe middle 1/3.

 

[DALE]

"When/Where are appropriate places to OC". Question for those that OC...What kind of response do you get in a bank or credit union? A bank is a place of high security due to the nature of their business, money...but I have never noticed any signage restricticting OC. I would wonder how the bank personnel would respond to what they might perceive as a threat.

 

[Artilleryman]

to the best of my knowledge certain places- banks, courthouses, etc- are completely off limits for carrying a weapon. This applies to both concealed or open carry. perhaps one of the legal-ese experts could confirm or deny.

 

[Artilleryman]

"What kind of response do you get in a bank or credit union?.

I believe the response would be negative.

 

[Teufel_Hunden]

However....banks and credit unions are not off limits (in Oregon) (I'd draw the line there for OC but its legal). Also CC is just fine in either case. Municipal courts can ban OC but not CC in Oregon.