National When cops and America’s cherished gun rights collide, cops win

[American123]

And how do we expect it to play out when a guy with a gun on his hip is taught that anyone within 21' of him can kill him in a split second, and that everyone he meets while on the job wants to kill him?

Not very good.

 

[ma96782]

Came across this summary - may give some a different perspective on what's in store.
https://metallicman.com/laoban4site/what-the-progressive-liberals-have-in-store-for-conservatives/

IMHO.....
Unfortunately.....
The schools don't or seldom teach the kids the above history lessons now a days. Instead, it's about HOW TO indoctrinate them to the ideals of _________. Well, read it for yourself.

One of the most influential men in our American public education system was John Dewey, best known as "the father of modern education." Dewey was a dedicated socialist and a member of 15 Marxist organizations. He taught those that trained America's teachers.

Dewey believed that it was not possible to make socialists out of individuals. Therefore, developing children into being able to think for themselves would, as he put it, "spoil the harmony of the collective society."

The National Education Association that honored Dewey for his contributions to education, previously stated, "We stand for socializing the individual."

The organization firmly believes that, "The major function of the school is the social orientation of the individual… Education must operate according to a well-formulated social policy."

One of the association's specialists, Paul Haubner, once stated that, "The schools cannot allow parents to influence the kind of values-education their children receive in school; that is what is wrong with those who say there is a universal system of values. Our goals are incompatible with theirs. We must change their values."

More recently, Chester M. Pierce, M.D., Professor of Education and Psychiatry at Harvard, believed that every child entering school is essentially mentally ill because the child comes to school with certain "allegiances to our Founding Fathers, toward our elected officials, toward his parents, toward a belief in a supernatural being, and toward the sovereignty of this nation as a separate entity."

Pierce strongly believed that it was up to teachers to make all of these sick children well, "by creating the international child of the future."

Taken from: https://www.theblaze.com/contributi...d-well-in-your-childs-public-education-system

Of course as always......it doesn't mean that EVERY Teacher or Administrator is guilty.

Aloha, Mark

PS......Rrrright.....

 

[bbbass]

The judges opinion:
"..... But Andrew Scott made a fateful decision that night: he chose to answer his door with a gun in his hand. That changed everything. That is the one thing that – more than anything else – led to this tragedy."

Apparently FL is not one of those states that has a "shared" or "mutual" responsibility in their tort law. IMO there is more than one thing in a chain or line of actions that leads to a "tragedy". But my reading indicates that in FL, LE cannot be held civilly responsible for mistakes in the line of duty. Interesting. I did not think the concept of qualified immunity included the city. One would think the city would have to pay up because Deputies had the wrong house. But IIRC, those cases are not typically not won by the plaintiffs in front of a judge.

Did this case never get to a jury? It was thrown out? If it had made it to a modern jury, there would have been HELL to pay!!!

 

[Alexx1401]

I only got 4 more years! Then I'm gonna get a real job.

That is the part that really scares me. So many good LEO's are "stuck". They get many years into it, now what? So of course they want to finish getting that pension under their belt. Last couple I have helped get on I did ask, are you really sure this is what you want? They are good but, a lot of good people no longer want to do this job for easy to see reasons. Look how many here have them pre judged. So what people will end up with is people getting the job who should not. The kind of people who "claim" anyone can get the job may live to see the day when it becomes close to that easy. Then we will see a LOT more really bad outcomes from people who should never had got the job. People get what they ask for then they scream and cry over their choices
I work with several who retired early just to get the hell out of the job as soon as they could and get the benefits they had worked for. They watch what's happening now and feel like I do. What the hell is going to end up happening if this keeps up like this

 

[ma96782]

As a result of the incident, Samayoa was fired from the San Francisco Police Department in 2018. He had only graduated the academy days before the shooting, according to KQED.

Because.....
TRAINING = "Flawless Performance" no matter what.

According to CNN, the office of San Francisco District Attorney Chesa Boudin charged former San Francisco police officer Chris Samayoa with voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, assault with a semiautomatic firearm, assault by police officer, and discharge of a firearm with gross negligence. The charges stem from a 2017 incident where Samayoa fatally shot 42-year-old Keita O'Neil, an unarmed Black man who was fleeing from the police.

Read more here: [Opinion] Former San Francisco Cop Who Fatally Shot Unarmed Black Man Charged With On-Duty Homicide, a First for the City, District Attorney Says (msn.com)

Aloha, Mark

PS...."Assault with a Semi-Automatic Firearm".

The PD issues the weapon. So.....it's not like the officer can choose a revolver? Or can he?

 

[Xaevian]

Well, ask a gun grabber and they will tell you it wasn't the fault of the cop or the homeowner, it was the guns. The only logical target of a lawsuit should be their manufacturers.







Course, they also think you can fix stupid...

 

[Drako]

Keep in mind as people are throwing around numbers there was a US population of 186 million in 1960 vs 331 million today. So per capita officer deaths are way down. Probably a heck of a lot more LEOs today and astronomically more contacts between police/citizenry.

 

[USMC1911]

Keep in mind as people are throwing around numbers there was a US population of 186 million in 1960 vs 331 million today. So per capita officer deaths are way down. Probably a heck of a lot more LEOs today and astronomically more contacts between police/citizenry.

I agree but I think I have beat that horse pretty well already. One thing I could not find is officer involver shootings as a year over year statistic that went back more then several years. It would be interesting to see. If I had to guess on the job police fatalities from violence would be trending down and have a increase on the civilian side. Just a guess.

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

If the police come to my door (on my several acres) without a valid reason they are trespassing. I'm not required to talk to them, or to allow them to remain on my property. If they have a valid reason to be there they need to use common courtesy, like identifying themselves and why they are there. Without a warrant they have no right to shout orders or to enter my dwelling. I have a perfect right to carry a gun in my hand anywhere on my property any time without being shot at. If there are laws and/or police policies that justify any other behavior they are dead wrong, and need to be changed.

That's pretty much what "qualified immunity" does. It shields police from civil liability even when they are "dead wrong" and violate the rights of citizens.

That doesn't mean that every case dismissed under the doctrine achieves the wrong outcome. Usually officers act properly and lawfully and they should be shielded from liability in such circumstances. However, any dismissal should be on the basis of their proper and lawful conduct not by a doctrine created by the Supreme Court in 1967 that exists nowhere in the Constitution or statutes of the United States.

The problem is that courts frequently extend that shield to cases where police act improperly and unlawfully as evidently happened in the fatal shooting of Andrew Scott. Here's how the problem was described in a Federalist Society commentary:

... under the judge-made doctrine of qualified immunity, public officials are shielded from liability even for illegal misconduct, unless that conduct violated "clearly established law." This standard is incredibly difficult for plaintiffs to overcome, because courts generally require not just a clear legal rule, but a prior case on the books with functionally identical facts. Judge Lynn Adelman, of the Eastern District of Wisconsin, recently wrote that "[o]f all the restrictions that the Court has imposed on [Section 1983], the one that has rapidly become the most harmful to the enforcement of constitutional rights is the doctrine of qualified immunity."

That is why a broad coalition of organizations signed on to a Cato Institute brief last year asking the Supreme Court to reconsider qualified immunity.

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

I meant the judge's opinion... I disagree with it.
Not sure where your mind went, but you wasted a lot of effort there, posting, reposting, pulling quotes, copying/pasting, etc to prove something that wasn't in doubt.

Thanks for clarifying. Your disagreement with the opinion wasn't clear to me.

Thanks, too, for your concern about my effort. If I was writing to you privately I probably would have kept the reply short. However, since it was posted to the thread where there are people who seemingly agree with the judge's opinion I don't consider it a wasted effort.

 

[No_Regerts]

I agree but I think I have beat that horse pretty well already. One thing I could not find is officer involver shootings as a year over year statistic that went back more then several years. It would be interesting to see. If I had to guess on the job police fatalities from violence would be trending down and have a increase on the civilian side. Just a guess.

The average number of police contacts is about 50 million per year over the last 10 years. Death by cop runs as little as 900 and as much as 1100 a year. The last few years has been in the mid 900s. So, thats like .00002 deaths per contact.

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

And it keeps coming back to this. People who want to think they have a "right" to greet LEO's at the door gun in hand, and nothing bad happen.

Apparently, you didn't read the article or the district court opinion or the 11th C.C.A. opinion. There's no testimony or evidence that the victim, Andrew Scott, knew LEO were at his door. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the county sheriff testified in a deposition that his department didn't have a policy of announcing they were LE under the circumstances which resulted in Scott's fatal shooting.

 

[USMC1911]

The average number of police contacts is about 50 million per year over the last 10 years. Death by cop runs as little as 900 and as much as 1100 a year. The last few years has been in the mid 900s. So, thats like .00002 deaths per contact.

I couldn't find any accurate info for historic shootings past about what you posted. I'm curious about historic contacts per year and officer involved shooting over said timeframe. Might be a better way to guage things.

 

[uberguy]

Use of lethal force by police should be the same standard as for civilians. I fail to see any credible reasons why not and I consider myself very pro-cop. But there's no excusable oops when it comes to taking a life.

 

[No_Regerts]

I couldn't find any accurate info for historic shootings past about what you posted. I'm curious about historic contacts per year and officer involved shooting over said timeframe. Might be a better way to guage things.

Well....here's a dark fact. No one used to report them.

 

[bbbass]

Read more here: [Opinion] Former San Francisco Cop Who Fatally Shot Unarmed Black Man Charged With On-Duty Homicide, a First for the City, District Attorney Says (msn.com)

Should have given Officer Samoyed a medal!

Except the "victim" was a POC, his career as a thief and drug dealer supported his granny that raised him and his 8 sisters ("How else he gonna get his money?"), just started taking GED courses (before he got out of prison again), and was turning his life around.

 

[ma96782]

And.....

What about the unlawful conduct done by Politicians?

Should Politicians have immunity too? Rrrrright....and most of them, are lawyers too.

Think about the many laws that Politicians have passed. But if/when challenged, the courts throw them out as unconstitutional or a violation of rights.

Also further think about.....who had to pay to fight the law and who got the bill to cover the Politician''s stupid mess.

Example: Law is passed to ban gun shops within the city limits of _________. So? Should an operating business be forcibly/suddenly shut down just because some Politician finds the business, not to his/her liking? Or......what about an obviously targeted tax meant to run the business out of business? Or.......a rezoning of property, meant to disallow an already operating business?

And what about the ATF?
Bump Stocks.....now illegal.
Pistol Braces.....now illegal (or soon will be).
Assault Weapons.......
Yet, there is no provision to pay compensation to the owners who already have them? And/or what about making a new tax/law to collect on already owned items? Certainly.......these measures are an infringement of the 2nd A?.

Aloha, Mark

 

[WillametteWill]

Let me start by saying to all, thank you for the civil discussion on this and keeping this thread open with something that is important to all of us pro 2A folks, it definitely applies to all of us.

Well....here's a dark fact. No one used to report them.

I've read a few articles over the past few years on this. Exactly what is stated above. There is no standard for reporting shootings or uses of force nationwide. Only fatalities are noted and even then, they are not necessarily separated as "officer involved", often just listed as homicide (the definition...not the same a murder). I think we all agree it would be helpful to have better statistical reporting in this area. Specifically being able to track the "why" behind what happened to improve training and other areas when working with the public.

Use of lethal force by police should be the same standard as for civilians. I fail to see any credible reasons why not and I consider myself very pro-cop. But there's no excusable oops when it comes to taking a life.

Sadly, excusable is a standard. We are judged by the doctrine of the reasonable person. Life in these fringes is gritty, fraught with danger for both side almost always with limited or incorrect (an the time) information. Most people go through life either never or only extremely rarely experiencing this. They are nearly always only along for the ride when they do, not having to make life or death decisions.

By nature of the job, officers are frequently placed in these positions. Under the same conditions, knowing what they know (including training), if another officer would have found it reasonable to have the same action it will be ruled to not be a criminal action. This is how those of us who carry weapons for personal self defense will be judged as well. There is a phrase that sums it up (not mine), awful but lawful.

This is why, as some of you have noticed from posts in other threads, that I'm pretty much a zealot for us who carry firearms to have as much quality and documented training as possible. Heaven forbid any of us have to use deadly force and a legal case is brought against us, even knowing what we did was justified (different from excusable), we are allowed to show what the "reasonable person" looks like to us.

The officer's "reasonable person" includes all academy training, advanced officer training and, most importantly, typically years of experience of what really happens during violent encounters.

 

[bbbass]

And.....

What about the unlawful conduct done by Politicians?

Should Politicians have immunity too? Rrrrright....and most of them, are lawyers too.

Think about the many laws that Politicians have passed. But if/when challenged, the courts throw them out as unconstitutional or a violation of rights.

Also further think about.....who had to pay to fight the law and who got the bill to cover the Politician''s stupid mess.

Example: Law is passed to ban gun shops within the city limits of _________. So? Should an operating business be forcibly/suddenly shut down just because some Politician finds the business, not to his/her liking? Or......what about an obviously targeted tax meant to run the business out of business? Or.......a rezoning of property, meant to disallow an already operating business?

And what about the ATF?
Bump Stocks.....now illegal.
Pistol Braces.....now illegal (or soon will be).
Assault Weapons.......
Yet, there is no provision to pay compensation to the owners who already have them? And/or making a provision to collect a tax on __________? Certainly.......these measures are an infringement of the 2nd A?.

Aloha, Mark

We can solve ALL this by eliminating ALL public employee positions.... No Oregon public pension deficit either!!!

Who's with me???

 

[mobil890]

When someone confronts you with a firearm you make a split second decision to live ,die or pray. You be the judge just saying