National When cops and America’s cherished gun rights collide, cops win

[No_Regerts]

Correct and if you remove the auto accidents the numbers lean even more heavily that the job is less dangerous. We can debate the reasons with auto accident deaths but auto accidents are hard to quantify as the circumstances play such a huge roll. Deaths from direct conflicts with suspects is lower. I stand by my assertion the job is less dangerous then in past decades.

Like I said, departments greatly limiting pursuits and then mandating body armor.

I'll add that tactics now incorporate more arrests at gunpoint. Gives you a fighting chance.

I bet we see another drop in vehicle deaths as we phase out the last rear wheel drive vehicles in favor of AWD.

 

[USMC1911]

Like I said, departments greatly limiting pursuits and then mandating body armor.

So body armor is the sole contributing factor over the last 50 years... Sure.

 

[No_Regerts]

So body armor is the sole contributing factor over the last 50 years... Sure.

I edited and added tactics. People don't shoot back as often when guns are already pointed at them.

 

[No_Regerts]

Something that proves my point is that shootings by plain clothes officers are typically a good chunk higher per capita than officers that are geared up. Bad guys take opportunities and todays police do their best to limit opportunity by presence.

 

[USMC1911]

You are totally disregarding the HUGE decrease in violence overall in society. While I agree better safety policy and tactics have contributed, I feel a huge part has to do with society.

 

[No_Regerts]

You are totally disregarding the HUGE decrease in violence overall in society. While I agree better safety policy and tactics have contributed, I feel a huge part has to do with society.

Thats true, but studies show the change in tactics, equipment, and appearance have had a dramatic effect on resistance, assaults, and line of duty injury and deaths.

The danger of anyone being harmed or killed has decreased. Even in military conflicts.

 

[WillametteWill]

View attachment 782199

Respectfully, this chart disproves your earlier assertion in post #40 about declining officer deaths since the 1960. The low point was actually in the 60's going up in the late 70's into the 80's, were the violent crime rate when up as well. Gang violence from drug wars was a major cause during this time with much of the violence being gang on gang. Officers were caught up in this and had to change to stay alive.

And what has changed since then? On the criminal side, very little. Still the same people doing the same stupid, violent things. What has changed is that the police are now trained to be fearful and to shoot first and ask questions later. A suspect now encounters two or more police officers screaming often incompatible demands and not listening at all. Why? Because they are afraid. Why are they afraid? Because standard police training has made them so. What if that suspect is mentally challenged? Or deaf? Or autistic? "Get on the ground!" "Hands on your head!" Those are two things that it's hard to do at the same time. If you scream at my autistic daughter her brain just shuts down and she panics and wants to run away. "So sorry, we shot your daughter. We didn't know. We followed policy." You didn't bother to assess the situation, ask a question, listen for an answer. Police training needs to change, and policies that excuse stupid police behavior need to be abolished.

Everything has changed. Sorry but to not see this is disingenuous. Sorry, but if you transported 1970's police work into the modern standards to which they would now be judged, most officers would be in jail now. It was a more violent, raw time and rougher actions by officers were acceptable in that era (keep in mind you could slap your wife around back then and if you didn't leave any marks you would be okay.) Seriously.

Is that last example morally correct? Absolutely not. It is horrible as are the results (i.e. Nicole Simpson). Can police training improve? Sure it can, and it always should be. But you can't train for every event. Going through an OODA Loop of 10 million variables of every possible situation will get you killed. I frequently see videos of LE actions that are bad, and action should be taken against them. To your example, virtually never should someone shoot a person who is running away (there are limited exceptions). Agree with you, the exceptions are problems that need to be dealt with.

Going back to the OP, I wasn't standing in that doorway at 1:30 in the morning. I don't know what the officers knew. I don't know what prior calls that night, week, month had shaped their state of mind. I don't know what actions they perceived the poor guy was doing (e.g. flinched when he saw officers at his door, elbow contracting as it will do, with the muzzle now coming toward the officers).

None of us were.

I think we can all agree training should continue to improve. I'll try and do my part when I'm working with officers again in a few weeks.

 

[USMC1911]

Respectfully, this chart disproves your earlier assertion in post #40 about declining officer deaths since the 1960. The low point was actually in the 60's going up in the late 70's into the 80's, were the violent crime rate when up as well. Gang violence from drug wars was a major cause during this time with much of the violence being gang on gang. Officers were caught up in this and had to change to stay alive.

Not sure what your looking at as the chart clearly shows a decrease in officer deaths starting in the late 60s or early 70s all while adding large amounts of officers. If I looked I would bet officer deaths per 100,000 has significantly decreased.

 

[bbbass]

One thing none of the group who want Cops gone never will get is what would happen without them. Many of them think themselves quite super, at least in their own minds. The reality is if there was no Cops they would soon be the slaves of some lord who had the power. It's often funny to listen to them talk how it would be and how they could take care of themselves but, also kind of sad that some of them really believe it.

Think "CHAZ Warlord" who decides who will be armed and who get away with what while others get killed for whatever the warlord doesn't like. Nobody remembers "Lord of the Flies"? Really???

I swear that a lot of people would rather their police wear bobby outfits and carry a 38.

I have read right here on NWFA from at least one member that thinks cops should not carry arms. I see... WE have the right to defend ourselves with lethal force but go to work to keep the peace and enforce the rule of law and you lose that right???????

IMO the extreme end of the spectrum should not drive the policies of policing.

The extremes most of the time determine all things. For instance, we carry, despite the chances of needing a firearm statistically are very small. We use seatbelts, despite most of us not getting in a serious accident. We buy home owners, life, and car insurance. You get the picture. Lastly, I carry a full mag despite the fact that statistically I will only need 2 or 3 shots, or none at all, just a mere display of the capability of deadly force, and btw I carry two 17rd on the oppo side of my belt... just in case of the Zombie Apocalypse!!!

But, if you want to be obtuse, the military needs to go back to 1903 Springfields, Sherman tanks, and P40s. Because no advancement in technology or tactics matters. Right?

I too respect law enforcement. I'm more referring to people who thinks cops can do no wrong. Its important to be objective.

I don't think cops can do no wrong, but IMO there are way too many people that think cops do no right. As made obvious by the 99% comment.

should look like cops not like soldiers

I REALLY don't care what they LOOK like. I'm much more interested that the have the best tools for doing the job, and that they have the best chance at survivability (sp). If the public at large doesn't like it, the LE agencies need to have a better PR program to help the public get their heads out.

While I can appreciate your thoughts, the events of late I think have telegraphed the importance of maintaining public trust and support. That can't be done with an us vs them mindset of we are here to enforce the law.

There is a lot to be said for building rapport much like officer Smith or Jones was able to do walking the beat in generations past. Community policing has really taken a back seat in a lot of areas over the last few decades .

Community policing is still done, but probably from inside a vehicle. IMO there are way too many instances of officers being attacked today while walking a beat in NYC or just sitting in a car in Los Angeles, or in Dallas during O'bummer. It might be pretty hard to get back to community policing while BLM/AntifA has declared war on LE, and criminals are allowed to do crim stuff with no consequences.

For those that want to turn back the clock, the beat cops in olden times beat up a lot of people on the street. And the Gang Squad in NYC had stop and frisk and all that. Good stuff, no us vs them there.

As long as humans are involved, there will be an "us vs them". No matter what job. Look at how much contempt bartenders can have toward customers.

And look at how much contempt AOC has for Americans that want to keep our values and traditions instead of going full Marxist ecofreak dumbazz!!!

Wow, just wow.

Do you suspect there might be a "Sovereign Citizen" or a jailhouse lawyer there???

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________--


Sorry for the long post folks... I missed all the fun after yesterday morning!

bb

 

[bbbass]

Sorry guys this rant may have been out of place.

 

[NW Backpacker]

The judges opinion:
"..... But Andrew Scott made a fateful decision that night: he chose to answer his door with a gun in his hand. That changed everything. That is the one thing that – more than anything else – led to this tragedy."


This judge, like Mike Strickland's judge, is wrong. Her stated opinion, is clearly anti-gun, which was the main intent of the article. [ETA: The other intention of the article being anti-police.] What led to the tragedy was the idiotic decision to open the door at 1:30 AM, not knowing who is out there!!!! There was no need to open the door - there was a window next to it - all the guy had to do was open the window and ask who it was and what they wanted, or he could have yelled "Who is it?" through the closed door.

NEVER open your door unless you know the person who is outside - talk through an adjacent window or just yell through the door. This story could have turned out much worse if there had been a group of thugs outside.

 

[WAYNO]

I have offended another member, without intention.

Consider this post, poofed.

 

[bbbass]

Whatever. Ya'll hate on Cali's, I'll throw some shade on Westsiders.

 

[bbbass]

@WAYNO

To be even more clear, I don't think people should be abused by Law Enforcement for any reason. Much less and especially because they wear a uniform or have a base sticker on their car.

 

[albin25]

Is there anyone still out there that doesn't know cops carry guns, or can't grasp that cops get scared when they are greeted by an unknown person with a gun IN HAND (like anyone else would too), and really really don't want to get shot either.

Reality is, we need the cops to show-up prepared for most eventualities...
.... the same way E.M.T.'s must.
We wouldn't expect an E.M.T. to show up on a bicycle with only a tourniquet, aspirin, a box of band-aids and some soothing words, or, the fire Dept to respond to a call with a guy carrying a step ladder, a water bottle and a pamphlet of fire-safety hints.

Remember when an ambulance was basically a glorified station wagon to carry a stretcher?
Remember when cops didn't need dash mounted riot guns, body armor, tasers or naloxone injectors?

... and now (in Oregon) with the odds of the person answering the door armed AND "high" being increased exponentially.... Are the cops supposed to assume the cocaine/meth will make them less ornery, more fearful, less risk averse?

On the other hand... When was the last time someone telling you to "calm down" repeatedly, actually calmed you down?
I'm expecting to see a lot fewer "social workers/defusers" living long enough to collect their pensions. Whether that's a good or bad thing, is your call.

 

[ma96782]

When I grew up in the 60s.....
Watching the coverage of protests in the streets etc.....
I used to get into numerous debates with my parents about police conduct.

Right or wrong or otherwise.

My parents would frequently say.....
If you can't beat um....join um.

What do I know......so, then I joined um.

OMG!!!!! Your perspective changes. BTW....I would not recommend that my son join a PD, in today's world.

Aloha, Mark

 

[No_Regerts]

When I grew up in the 60s.....
Watching the coverage of protests in the streets etc.....
I used to get into numerous debates with my parents about police conduct.

Right or wrong or otherwise.

My parents would frequently say.....
If you can't beat um....join um.

What do I know......so, then I joined um.

OMG!!!!! Your perspective changes. BTW....I would not recommend that my son join a PD, in today's world.

Aloha, Mark

I only got 4 more years! Then I'm gonna get a real job.

 

[ma96782]

I only got 4 more years! Then I'm gonna get a real job.

LOL. Yup....I know of many ex-PD officers who did that.

ME.....nope. I figured that life is too short.

Aloha, Mark

 

[jayR]

Came across this summary - may give some a different perspective on what's in store.
https://metallicman.com/laoban4site/what-the-progressive-liberals-have-in-store-for-conservatives/

 

[Deacon]

The caveat is the knock was at 1:30 am...make of it what you will.

If someone is knocking on my door at 1:30 am I'll be checking my camera first. If it isn't someone I recognize I won't be answering. You can't shoot someone for banging on your door in the middle of the night. So as long as they aren't trying to force their way in, I'm ignoring them (other than calling the non-emergency line to report it). If it is the police I'd be inclined to ask them why they're at my door before opening it.