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In all fairness, its a completely different type if recruit today vs back then. You have a more "diverse" group of people of more varying size and physical capability. You also have to deal with the product of a "violence solves nothing" upbringing. You have to take these people and get them to be effectively violent. If they don't get there, the confidence never develops and they can't effectively operate when things go bad.

So, you have to instill fear. Show them what happens when they are complacent. Show them how fast they can get stabbed or shot. Show them videos of cops getting the boots taken to them. The video of the female getting beat in an elevator while trying to retain her gun, is a good one. Its the only way to get them to take their head out of their azz because you'll never get them to be comfortable in their own skin.
In all fairness, my dad became a cop in the first place because they didn't want him on the "other" side. One Saturday night he went into one of the local bars to arrest his younger brother, who was breaking the place up. 60 years later the locals still talk about that fight. Yeah, they were raised differently. If the only reason you can feel safe and hold your own as a cop is that you have a gun you're in the wrong profession.
 
In all fairness, my dad became a cop in the first place because they didn't want him on the "other" side. One Saturday night he went into one of the local bars to arrest his younger brother, who was breaking the place up. 60 years later the locals still talk about that fight. Yeah, they were raised differently. If the only reason you can feel safe and hold your own as a cop is that you have a gun you're in the wrong profession.

Isn't that the truth though. This social experiment called equality has put people into jobs that they physically aren't suited for. Being in a role where part of your job literally involves chasing, wrestling and fighting with other people - that is a role for big, strong, fast, guys with good heads on their shoulders.

Most police I have interacted with, I'd have to willingly comply if they were going to arrest me. Physically it wouldn't happen, but I'm a virtuous guy, so unless they are acting on tyrannical orders, we have no problem.
 
We got 36 warrants. 34 wrong addresses. Definitely frustrating.

Late to this thread (don't post here much) but yeah, I'd always observed that that people who had warrants out on them ... tended to be the sort of folk who changed addresses on a regular basis. Just sayin' ... Why I'm happy my days of working the streets (and being on a team that sometimes kicks doors in) are behind me.

But yeah, it's always the fault of the cops when they hit the wrong address.

Still pondering why anyone would open their door at 0130. Most folks would already be talking with their local 911 dispatcher.
 
What do you mean you "ain't buying this either"? What is it that you aren't "buying"?

There is literally a link to the judge's opinion in the body of the article so you can read it for yourself. You don't have to trust the Reuters reporters. The judge's opinion is quoted accurately in the article. Here's the whole conclusion minus orders:
I meant the judge's opinion... I disagree with it.
Not sure where your mind went, but you wasted a lot of effort there, posting, reposting, pulling quotes, copying/pasting, etc to prove something that wasn't in doubt.
 
But yeah, it's always the fault of the cops when they hit the wrong address.

Still pondering why anyone would open their door at 0130. Most folks would already be talking with their local 911 dispatcher.
And it keeps coming back to this. People who want to think they have a "right" to greet LEO's at the door gun in hand, and nothing bad happen. This is what I just do not get. This to me is like the people who when they get pulled over, and "think" they are doing nothing wrong, want hold court on the side of the road. When it goes bad it's not their fault of course. If some LEO is on your property and "should not be" there are a few ways to handle it. The choice I would not, and will never make is to greet them with gun in hand, daring them to shoot me. I must be missing something here:s0092:.
When I was single and moved around a lot I had a couple LEO's show up at my door a couple times looking for someone who apparently lived there in the past. Of course they did not show up at 1:00 am. The times it happened I would say hi, they would ask for the mook they were looking for. I would say not me, just moved in here. At one place I said I get mail in that name now and then, keep sending it back". They left. Should I have opened the door, gun in hand, because it was my place and it was my "right"? As I have said before if I felt I needed a gun in hand to greet people at my door I would not be opening the door. I carry a gun ALL the time. The idea being just going to the corner stop N Rob for milk I may need it. If the Stop N Rob was the kind of place I felt I needed the gun in my hand to go to I would wait on buying the damn milk till I could get it someplace else.
 
Do mistakes happen in Policing...Yes
Are there cases and examples of "over enthusiastic" policing , and or abuse by law enforcement...Yes again.

With that said...
To view all law enforcement in the same light , by the actions of those who have made bad decisions , is the same as judging all gun owners the same , as those gun owners who made bad decisions.


And with that said , keep in mind....
It is up to you and you alone , how you respond to others and situations around you.
How others perceive your actions , may not be the same as you intended.
How others perceive your actions or what you say , may , impart more importance or meaning , than what you actually said or did.

It is extremely important when interacting with law enforcement to remember :

The three "C's" of communication , as in answer : Clearly , Completely and Concisely ...

Your Right to do something , may be your Right...but it also may not be an appropriate action for that time or place.

How you act , or what you say will be judged , quickly , by folks , whose lives and the lives of others will depend on their decisions....Think before you say or do something.
Andy
 
I see both sides to this. On one hand, merely having a gun is not something that people should be dying for. On the other hand, it is the totality of circumstances that need to be considered, not simply stopping there and expecting a judgement.

I think about from the perspective of being around other gun people. If everything is holstered or demeanor is clearly peaceful, no immediately perceived threat, if there is a gun in hand, the context and the demeanor of the situation very drastically will determine if I perceive that as a threat and act accordingly or not. If someone presents themselves to me gun in hand and there isn't a very obvious reason for that (like we are at the range together) then yeah, I am going to perceive deadly threat because having a gun in your hand is a immediate precursor to that gun being fired at me.

From what I recall from watching the video of this more than a month ago was the guy effectively suffered from terminal stupidity. Opening the door, gun in hand doesn't leave officers much decision time to determine deadly threat or not, I would have likely figured "threat" as well since answering the door gun in hand isn't my idea of a peaceful action, but is more likely a precursor to using it.

Having a right to bear arms doesn't mean that basic common sense isn't also required to be used effectively. The more freedom we have means the more responsible and intelligent we have to be, and also being willing to live with the consequences of that freedom. I'm preferential to dangerous liberty myself, hence me chalking that up to an unfortunate outcome of stupidity.
Beautifully stated.
Regarding the topic of the OP...it's the totality of the circumstances. And often a 1:30am circumstances suck. Information is often scarce, not always accurate and many times conflicting. But you know it involves something dangerous and action needs to be taken.

In all fairness, my dad became a cop in the first place because they didn't want him on the "other" side. One Saturday night he went into one of the local bars to arrest his younger brother, who was breaking the place up. 60 years later the locals still talk about that fight. Yeah, they were raised differently. If the only reason you can feel safe and hold your own as a cop is that you have a gun you're in the wrong profession.
60 years later so in the 1960's...when society, policing and officers were a million miles away from where they are now. This was before everyone had cameras. Trust me when I say, the public would not like seeing how the sausage gets made in back alleys regarding police tactics during this time. Was it effective at the time? Mostly, giving how society was back then. Would not remotely work now.
 
Cops won't win if you know the law and your rights. Don't be obnoxious or ignorant about it. Cops shouldn't be immune from anything. I don't support cops 99% of the time. Get educated and know your stuff.
 
This discussion often becomes polarized. Have any opinion at all and you'll make an enemy.


...POOF













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Though I agree, in reality how does this play out - would you expect officers to be fired upon before using their gun?

If we get really precise about ROE it could help determine what is "reasonable" or not.
And how do we expect it to play out when a guy with a gun on his hip is taught that anyone within 21' of him can kill him in a split second, and that everyone he meets while on the job wants to kill him?
 
Average annual officer fatalities
1960's - 160 per year average
1970's - 234 (peak of 285 in 1974)
1980's - 192 (still higher than the 60's)
1990's - 163 (finally about the same as the 60's)
In the last decade we are still at about 162 per year. If you adjust this to saves due to body armor, better tactics, more firepower when necessary, improved communications, and especially medical saves due to EMS and what can be done in and Emergency Department this number would be massively higher. Officer injury numbers have been mitigated by many of the above along with tasers, OC spray and other tactics.

To me these numbers do not show the outliers but overall trends.

Correct and if you remove the auto accidents the numbers lean even more heavily that the job is less dangerous. We can debate the reasons with auto accident deaths but auto accidents are hard to quantify as the circumstances play such a huge roll. Deaths from direct conflicts with suspects is lower. I stand by my assertion the job is less dangerous then in past decades.
 
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Beautifully stated.
Regarding the topic of the OP...it's the totality of the circumstances. And often a 1:30am circumstances suck. Information is often scarce, not always accurate and many times conflicting. But you know it involves something dangerous and action needs to be taken.


60 years later so in the 1960's...when society, policing and officers were a million miles away from where they are now. This was before everyone had cameras. Trust me when I say, the public would not like seeing how the sausage gets made in back alleys regarding police tactics during this time. Was it effective at the time? Mostly, giving how society was back then. Would not remotely work now.
And what has changed since then? On the criminal side, very little. Still the same people doing the same stupid, violent things. What has changed is that the police are now trained to be fearful and to shoot first and ask questions later. A suspect now encounters two or more police officers screaming often incompatible demands and not listening at all. Why? Because they are afraid. Why are they afraid? Because standard police training has made them so. What if that suspect is mentally challenged? Or deaf? Or autistic? "Get on the ground!" "Hands on your head!" Those are two things that it's hard to do at the same time. If you scream at my autistic daughter her brain just shuts down and she panics and wants to run away. "So sorry, we shot your daughter. We didn't know. We followed policy." You didn't bother to assess the situation, ask a question, listen for an answer. Police training needs to change, and policies that excuse stupid police behavior need to be abolished.
 
PEOPLE..... PEOPLE WHO NEED PEEPHOLES...

:rolleyes: Sounds like someone needs to invent a peephole, so folks can see who's at the door...
...Y'know ... BEFORE they open the door .

Ooops.... never mind.
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