When an AR Pistol is not a Pistol - ATF responds

[PinkhamR]

These weapons have a VFG on them and are considered legal. ATF says as long as it is 26" long it is legal ????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9VLQ...eature=related

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Thoughts ?????

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[civilian75]

It is now in NFA limbo! Kidding.

But no, the letter says that the total length being over 26in, it automatically is out of NFA scope. Once it gets the foregrip, since it is no longer a pistol, then, it'd need to past the SBR litmus test. This is the definition:

" Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches".​

In short, this letter says, and the Law confirms, "if the barrel is less than 16in and total length is less than 26in, then, it is an SBR". We've been interpreting "if the barrel is more than 16in and total length is more than 26in, then, it is not an SBR". It it doesn't matter if it has a shoulder stock or not. It is how concealable (long) it is what they care about. The shoulder stock is relevant for the "pistol" definition. A pistol can't have one.

Wow! Technically, a rifle could have a barrel less than 16in long and still not be a an SBR! Isn't that something!?!? We've been so focused on the barrel length that we missed the total firearm length part of the definition. This is a little hard to digest. Sounds too good to be true.

Wow! Do you get the implications? How many AR-15 SBRs are out there that should not be? How many $200 stamps have been bought unnecessarily?!

Good post, pinkhamr!

 

[cyclesurvival]

So if I build a kit and the barrel is 14" but the total over all lenght is over 26" then is it a rifle even if the stock is folding? or does it have to always be over 26"?

 

[civilian75]

The way I see it, has to be more than 26" with the stock folded, if bbl is less than 16in. But, still sounds too good to be true, and there MUST be something wrong with my logic.

The letter refers to the Thompson 1927A5, a stockless 13"bbl firearm. They have a pistol grip and you can get them w/o the holy paper and the $200 tax. There's a couple on Gun Broker right now.

I think that the only thing we can safely say is a rifle without a shoulder stock with a fore grip measuring than 26in long is not an NFA firearm.

 

[nubus]

I think if your barrel is under 16" and it has a stock you will have a problem.
Please, PLEASE, P-L-E-A-S-E prove me wrong.

The point of the post is, if the XO-26b is not a pistol or an AOW, WTF is it?

 

[billdeserthills]

These weapons have a VFG on them and are considered legal. ATF says as long as it is 26" long it is legal ????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9VLQ...eature=related

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Thoughts ?????

Your linky no worky

 

[Gentry]

Ridiculous laws are ridiculous. I would just SBR anything under 16 inches. I am not going to play around in a grey area and have the local cops hassle me, or have the ATF change their mind and then I have an illegal firearm.

 

[biggie24420]

It's funny that the gobbment can ship guns to Mexico and do illegal BS but if you get busted with a "pistol" with a VG... you get the third degree. Any who.... little off topic here but I use a Magpul AFG on my Draco and it is legit because the BATFE does not consider the AFG as a VG.

Here is a link to the Google document where it talks about the AFG being legal on a pistol. Look at Q#7.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...1MC00NzVhLWI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx&hl=en&pli=1

 

[civilian75]

Yeap, too good to be true. Bummer!

I kept diggin. Found the definition for a NFA firearm. Sorry for the false alarm. Here it is clear it is either/or:

Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.​

That settles it.

Yet, it does not change anything about the letter. The AR is not a AOW the same way the Thompson 1927A5 is not.

 

[bigguynail]

1. Rifle it has a butt stock or the means to attach one the rifled Barrel has to be under .6" bore there are exceptions for single shots and black powder "antique firearms" otherwise over .6" qualifies as Destructive device or DD and needs to be 16" minimum and in any configuration that it can be fired also over 26" unless a SBR or registered MG

2. Shotgun Barrel minimum 18" in length and over 26" in a configuration it can be fired. under either of those it gets classified as a AOW or SBS with a bore under 1" Over 1" it qualifies as a DD

3. Pistol any barrel under 16" and less than 26" overall and needs to be able to be fired with one hand and no buttstock or provision to attach one Vertical fore grips also are not allowed

4.Then there is the stockless non easily concealed pistol with a barrel less than 16" yet over 26" in overall length.

The Thompson 1927A5 had no provision for a buttstock to be attached as built. Yet being over 26" it is not governed by the restriction of being fired using just one hand. some AR or other pistols with overall lengths over 26" also fall into this classification and can have a Vertical fore grip installed.

5. Pyrotechnic Launchers such as Flare Launchers violate most of these constraints. Generally being exempted do to being restricted to firing low pressure rounds from
specific bores and chambers.

All these of course restrict to one pull of the trigger for one cartridge fired.

Thats the basic strictures as I understand them before moving into the land of NFA registered tax stamped Firearms

 

[PBinWA]

Leave it to the government to obfuscate even the simplest of definitions. I guess it's legal until it isn't as defined by how much time, money, and effort you are potentially willing to put into a court case to defend yourself against any charges some malicious agent chooses to charge you with.

Of course, the chances of actually getting charged are probably pretty small unless you spend tons of time at shooting ranges showing off your borderline legal toy.

 

[judicator]

Time to scrap the ATF and start over, they're almost as bad as the IRS.

 

[chase]

I think it needs a form 1 and butt stock.

 

[G1GRANDEUR]

You can't mount any type of grip device on them, period.

 

[bassman2]

That's not what the ATF letter states.

The 2 instances where a forward grip is OK: The magpul angled foregrip. And the instance of a 16 barrel, 26inch overall length pistol style AR (no butstock) with an a standard vertical fore grip.

 

[wsu 5.9er]

That's not what the ATF letter states.

The 2 instances where a forward grip is OK: The magpul angled foregrip. And the instance of a 16 barrel, 26inch overall length pistol style AR (no butstock) with an a standard vertical fore grip.

Yup, An AFG is allowed on any AR pistol. A VFG is allowed on an AR pistol, as long as the OAL is more than 26" and the pistol is not concealed.

 

[locobob]

This is exactly the type of nonsensical, overly complicated regulation that makes people despise government.

How about changing the law to this:
Under 12in barrel = handgun
Over 12in barrel = long gun
No restrictions on stocks or grips.

 

[wsu 5.9er]

I'd rather see them use the OAL of 26" determine whether or not it's an SBR/SBS. Over 26" would good-to-go. Under 26" would be an SBR/SBS. You could have an AR with a 10.5 barrel and not need a tax stamp.

 

[huntpotter]

Time to scrap the ATF and start over, they're almost as bad as the IRS.

I'm sure you are just being funny, but the ATF is a division of the IRS. It's all about the tax dollas.

 

[drew]

I'm sure you are just being funny, but the ATF is a division of the IRS. It's all about the tax dollas.

No, it used to be there and other areas in the Treasury Dept. The Homeland Security Act transferred it to the Justice Dept. The tax and trade responsibilities stayed with the Treasury Dept.

ATF Online - About ATF - History

Effective January 24, 2003, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) was transferred under the Homeland Security bill to the Department of Justice. The law enforcement functions of ATF under the Department of the Treasury were transferred to the Department of Justice. The tax and trade functions of ATF will remain in the Treasury Department with the new Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau.