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What's your POI vs your POA?

Discussion in 'Handgun Discussion' started by darkminstrel, Sep 7, 2011.

  1. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    Went out to the range and did some intensive practice with my .40 S&W 4013(non-TSW) and noticed that my aim has to be at a 12 o'clock hold. This is consistent using factory loads as well as my hand loads. The sights are factory night sights, unaltered by me at all.

    Horizontal plane is perfectly fine, it's the vertical that provides the problem.

    Edit; The range was a flat 20 feet, I was sitting at a bench, fully supported. Shots were controlled aimed.

    Edit #2; I was having to aim 6 to 8 inches above my target center. At 20' I find this odd.
     
  2. Chipperxd

    Chipperxd Buffalo Active Member

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    all my pistols seem to impact at POA except for my EMP 9mm. EMP is the only pistol that impact about an inch above the POA.
     
  3. chowser2

    chowser2 seaside Member

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    I had a taurus 24/7 that used to shoot about the same 6-8 inches low at 25 yards, It made me so mad I just sold it
     
  4. MarkAd

    MarkAd Port Orchard Well-Known Member

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    If you shoot with a lolly-pop sight picture what happens?
    If the round still hits low you may need to look into a taller front sight.
     
  5. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    It's a consistent POI at least. I was popping out some good 4" groups reliably once I figured out why my target's crotch looked like a sprinkler head. I'm now looking at replacing the fixed rear sight with an adjustable version to correct the problem.
     
  6. orygun

    orygun West Linn Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I prefer a "dead center" hold. Most handguns are set up for a 6 Oclock hold. At shorter distances both my CBOB and the Ruger 1911 want a hold slightly (2 inch?) below center. Since neither gun has a sight with vertical adjustment and it's so slight, I'll live with it. My .41 Mag is dead center at 50 yards.
    However, my Taurus TCP shoots sooooooo low at 15 yards it's silly! But, I figure it's a "belly gun" and don't sweat it. That, plus the fact that I seldom carry it make it a likely candidate for sale.

    Darkminstrel, what's the gun like shooting off hand at 20'? Could it be that you are not getting the same amount of gun movement when shooting off of the bench?
     
  7. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    This has been my experience as well. My .38 shoots a hair under center, my .357 a hair over and to the left. But this damned gun is puzzling me. I was shooting two handed, single, opposite. I don't really have an 'off' hand as I'm ambi and practice both hands equally.
     
  8. Aero Denezol

    Aero Denezol Salem Active Member

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    I had the same issue with an XD several years ago. Made me so mad, I sold it.

    All my pistols now are approx POA = POI at about 10-12 yards.
     
  9. ogre

    ogre Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    With the exception of my cap and ball revolvers all of my pistols are POA = POI.
     
  10. enjr4

    enjr4 Renton, WA Active Member

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    Mine are POA = POI. Me on the other hand . . .

    Ed
     
    iusmc2002 and (deleted member) like this.
  11. Wood Worker

    Wood Worker Linn County Oregon Active Member

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    I find with my autos, that the faster I make the bullet go, the lower the impact on the silhouette.
    The slower I make the bullet go, the higher the point of impact.

    I usually find a happy medium that works the action and still groups well.
    If It is a gun that is supposed to save my proverbial bacon from an angry, Bear, Lion, or Tiger, then I have to make ripsnorter loads and then get to play the sight swapping game.
     
  12. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    I'm now on a waiting list for an adjustable rear sight for this pistol. I'd rather dial it in to my shooting and have done with it than work towards correcting the pistol's failure by changing my aiming style. Considering I was grouping well regardless of my shooting position I feel that it's the sights that are to blame and not my technique.

    My factory loads were 180gr backed by 8.3gr of powder, my hand loads ranged from 5gr to 9gr (with a .2gr step in between each load) pushing a 165gr bullet. I was shooting 16 rounds of each load with a rest period in between each.

    Can anyone correct me and say that it was the way I was holding or aiming? I took vid of myself and I have what I've seen shown as proper shooting grip tension and position.
     
  13. Old506

    Old506 Northwest Member

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    Are we talking 20 feet? If at 20' you are doing something wrong, I would suspect. Are you shooting a weaver, cup and saucer or ISO? I don't know if you are experienced but you may want to let someone else shoot it who is reasonably good with a pistol. If you are somewhat inexperienced with a pistol you will learn, over time (adjusting to your natural point of aim and grip) and more than likely you will adjust your new adjustable sights.

    Is the 4013 DAO?
     
  14. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    Twenty feet to the inch. I was sitting at a bench, my hand position textbook. I produced the same results standing in modified weaver. Of note; I have 2 of the same pistol, one is mine and the other my wife's. It was hers that I was shooting. Mine is POA all the way.
     
  15. cwegga

    cwegga Helena, MT Active Member

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    You might try different loads. I know with my .357s the difference between 125gr loads and 180gr loads can be around 6 inches. The slower and heavier the bullet the more recoil happens before it leaves the barrel and the higher it will impact on the target.
     
  16. pacific keeper

    pacific keeper North Coast New Member

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    You might try calling S&W and get a shorter front sight . I believe this is a novak dove tail and they should have different heights .
     
  17. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    I'll be going out this next week to test some theories on this issue. I'll have the same rounds I used this past trip, as well as factory rounds, and some reloads with a heavier bullet. If the grouping is still consistent then I'll be getting the new sights installed and doing more tests. This is my wife's CCW pistol and I need it to do the job.