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What's your favorite 308/7.62 AR and why?

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by BullsBucksandBoars, Apr 29, 2016.

  1. BullsBucksandBoars

    BullsBucksandBoars The right place at the right time, OR Active Member

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    With the very real possibility of this country taking an even sharper turn left I've decided to take the plunge and get in to the "black gun" club. I have plenty of handguns and long guns of every action but just haven't ever had the desire to own one for myself. I guess I'm kind of a purist but I'm not going to be left behind after someone thinks they can make my decisions for me.

    I've operated many different brands and know the jists of them but all in 556/223. Personally I'm not a fan of that round but that's another discussion. What I'm looking for is the cliff notes on what to shop for and why.

    My questions are:

    Piston vs gas and why

    Weight is an issue to me, I don't want a 10lb+ battle rifle.

    Price is a factor but not a deal breaker

    Ability to accept cheap and a variety of magazines

    Must be able to fire/cycle/feed both 7.62 NATO and .308 Win

    Is there anything else I need to know before taking the plunge?
     
  2. PaulB47

    PaulB47 Hillsboro Well-Known Member

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    I don't have an AR, but I have an almost-an-AR. :) It is the FN FNAR. Except for the looks, I like it a lot. Very accurate, good trigger, soft-shooting, weight quite reasonable (although the 20-inch "light" contour barrel is no longer available, sadly), and it stays clean too - a good thing because it is a bear to disassemble. You can get some more interesting variations these days; I like the competition model - much prettier and no separate grip. I paid $999 for my base model new. Magazines proprietary, around $50 each.
     
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  3. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Piston will keep the gun cleaner longer then Gas.

    7.62 NATO and .308 win are the same size just different pressures so you want a .308 barrel and it will fire 7.62 but not in reverse.

    Build a lower and buy a complete upper and match them for the best price and to get exactly what is to your taste.
     
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  4. Mor4us

    Mor4us pnw Well-Known Member

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    Anything you say and post can and will be used against you in a court of law.

    but, if I wouldn't have lost all my AR's in that dreaded boating accident, I would highly recommend the M&P line smith and wesson gas gun for a 308, 223, and .22

    BUT, building one from the ground up will make an expert out of any newbie for knowledge of function.
     
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  5. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Dunno myself but I have seen many firearms instructors on YouTube make the statement that AR10's will almost always have a major malfunction during a weekend training course.

    Has anyone on here shot the heck out of thier AR10 without any issues?
     
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  6. BullsBucksandBoars

    BullsBucksandBoars The right place at the right time, OR Active Member

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    So what's the advantage to gas? Reliability?
     
  7. Foreverlost

    Foreverlost South of LesbianVille, OR. Active Member

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    The 7.62 NATO & .308WIN thingy: Same size cartridge for sure, 7.62 is a looser chamber in the event of dirt or damaged ammo.

    The pressure differences: This has been a long lived thread on the web. Depends on how one measures pressure. Apples to apples, you be the judge. Modern firearms could fire either, "Read Owners Manual". I've seen AR10's with a 7.62 NATO chamber & manufacturer states that firearm "will" fire either. Been there & done that with no issues. Run lots of 308 thru the 7.62 chamber, bang bang all day long.

    I'll take the piston, either way use ammo that functions.

    Foreverlost,
     
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  8. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    No advantage that I am aware of other then cheaper.
     
  9. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Are you talking about the upper receiver when you say chamber or the stamp on the barrel?
     
  10. Mor4us

    Mor4us pnw Well-Known Member

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    When it comes to autoshuckers of anykind expect problems. My 10/22 known for being one of the most, if not the most reliable auto gun has had a few miss fires, jams etc. Not many and I have put multiple thousands of rounds through it and most of the time it is cheap ammo related failure. Being that said, I also shoot auto 223 and 308 and as a reloader I tend to try to get the longest life of my brass as possible resulting in failures from brass fatigue. But if I could afford it and was to shoot only high quality ammo with meticulous cleaning i would venture to say my semi autos would be real close to 99% reliable. But as it is I am still shooting way more than fighting rifle failure. Now, if my life depended on 100% functioning, I would go premium ammo with a bolt action, but for predator hunting give me the semi auto.
     
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  11. ROCKintheUSSA

    ROCKintheUSSA North Idaho Member

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    Several months ago I bought a LaRue Tactical PredatAR in 7.62. The included test target was three shots under 4/10" at 100 meters. Better than I can shoot, so any discrepancies are my fault :)

    Expensive, and worth every penny.
     
  12. clearconscience

    clearconscience Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    I heard the mega .308 is very nice. I've really been wanting a AR10 for the last few years.

    I almost bought a DPMS oracle .308 last year for around $700 and figured I would upgrade as I wanted it.

    But hopefully by this time next year I will have something in AR10
     
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  13. Mor4us

    Mor4us pnw Well-Known Member

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    I really like shooting coyotes with my semi 308. I use 175 smks over 44 grains of varget (when I can find it) or a bit less of h4895 and that load takes all the wonder out of the "did I hit it or did I not"? running situation. The 223 is a great coyote round but I have a lot less spinners and cripples with the 308.
     
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  14. edslhead

    edslhead Vanc Gold Supporter Gold Supporter Silver Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    After break in my PSA I put together works fine. Pretty accurate. Trying to get one in at 10 lbs may be a problem. This one's 12 just like it sits. They all start around 8 pounds or more stripped.
    PS: if you don't count the ridiculously expensive Timmney trigger, this was just over $1000 for the rifle.
    IMG_0427_zpsdpezrwz7.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2016
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  15. Reno911

    Reno911 Hillsboro Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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  16. eldbillbo

    eldbillbo clackamas New world samurai and a redneck none the less Bronze Supporter

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    Piston vs gas and why

    Gas because it can be built lighter I know we are only talking about ounces but those ounces add up. The problems with the DI system have long been resolved and the piston system on an AR is solution to a problem that was solved 30 something years ago. but if you like what you read about pistons keeping the carbon out of the receiver then go for it . You'll still have to clean it but just a different place.

    Weight is an issue to me, I don't want a 10lb+ battle rifle. Look into the lightweight version of the DMPS G2 or clones of it. DMPS really made some obvious breakthroughs that I myself had always wondered why no one did this years ago and that was to shorted the receiver and the bolt carrier there did other things as well with the barrel extension reducing the weight and center of gravity to make it fill a lot lighter I think they only shaved off about a lb but a lb when being packed over a shoulder or extended out is quite noticeable . going with the lightweight barrel and carbon fiber float tube will also drop the weight quite a bit and make for a very comfortable shooter.

    Price is a factor but not a deal breaker . You can spend a ton of money on something that can do the same thing for half the price . if you feel you want more accuracy spend more money on a better barrel.

    Ability to accept cheap and a variety of magazines . mags are gonna cost you around $20 give or take what ever platform you go unless you get one of those CMMG ones that takes the $4 G3 mags .

    Must be able to fire/cycle/feed both 7.62 NATO and .308 Win. I think all the platforms do both unless you are looking at a match grade barrel that specifies one over the other


    Is there anything else I need to know before taking the plunge?

    I have read that dams had a bad run of extractors and the .308 is rough on them so probably a good idea to keep a spare just in case.
     
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  17. edslhead

    edslhead Vanc Gold Supporter Gold Supporter Silver Supporter Bronze Supporter

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  18. OutlawHoss

    OutlawHoss Klamath-Siskyou Well-Known Member

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    I have a DPMS LR308-AP4, pretty much their first model, a Gen 1. I like it a lot, and have, on several occasions, run mag after mag until the barrel was smoking and it has had normal to better than average performance. It is sensitive to having enough gas to cycle the action as it is standard DGI, which is important if you're reloading your own rounds. The trick I a stumbled upon and still use is David Tubbs/Superior Shooting System's flat buffer wire, which is basically a bump up in power, but also being a hardened silicon impregnated flat wire, has a duty cycle rating of 500,000, and more performance enhancements that actually do translate in to a better operating rifle (longer inertial hang time of the bolt in battery which increases gas compression to the port, easy spring stacking resulting in a flatter impulse energy curve on extraction stroke and the feed stroke, resulting in a bit over a pound of extra energy to strip and chamber a new round into battery) . I did my own custom trigger job and got a decent 4lb. trigger now. I say it's a great gun, but I've gone through a learning curve with it, learning how to properly load rounds for it, as well as in the first year I had it, some disappointing issues that I did work out. IF I HAD THE MONEY, I would, hands down, go for a SOCOM (or Scout; 18" barrel minimum) style M14/M1A, PERIOD. They have the longest history of proven performance, and there are some models available that just out perform anything close to it, including AR10's. My second choice would be FN-FAL. They've been in use since the time of the original AR10's short debut, yet long after the original Stoner rifles were back on the drawing board awaiting the performance upgrades of the AR-15 to be retroactively fitted, many countries, militaries, and special op units have been using FAL's continuously through today. They're easy to field strip, short stroke gas piston operated, and will shoot just about any NATO 7.62 you can ever come across. They are on the heavy side, 8 to almost 10 lbs generally, but with that weight they are grunt proof.
    I'm not up to date on the latest generations of AR 10's so there might be improvements around that make a AR 10 more attractive, I'm just not in the market for one as I've refined the one I have, so there probably are a lot better performing AR 10 rifles off the shelf around.

    One comment: the M16 that debuted in the 60's ran some pretty dirty military issue ammo, and the fact the rifles weren't issued with cleaning instructions that addressed the need to keep the DGI system clean, led to a real failure in performance under field conditions, and a bad rep for DGI guns. Now days, with much cleaner powders and the understanding that the gas tube needs regular maintenance along the lines of normal maintenance/cleaning of an AR, DGI isn't nearly as problematic as they were 50 years ago. Like I said above, I've fire tested my gun until it was too hot to handle, and the gas tube has never failed or lost performance, after which the gun was cleaned thoroughly, including the gas tube.

    Also, the NATO 7.62x51 has basically the same exterior dimensions as the commercial .308 WIN. Internally, there is about 2 gr. less capacity in the NATO round due to the military spec to have a thicker/stronger webbing at the head/rim of the round for machine gun use. As far as reloading a NATO brass for a semi auto gun versus a 308 WIN bolt gun, the following guideline applies: for a semi auto gun, ideal neck diameter is the diameter of the bullet, plus 2x the thickness of the brass measured at the neck, plus 0.002". So .308 + 2(0.009 or 0.010) + .002 = .328" to .330". This is because the neck needs to chamber a little looser for a semi auto to cycle. A bolt gun/commercial .308 WIN round neck diameter would be the bullet diameter, plus 2x the brass thickness at the neck, plus 0.003 [0.308 + 2(.009 to .010) + .003 = .329" to .331". This is better for a tighter and more consistent grip when the round fires and the neck expands and seals the chamber. This is why most folks will use a factory crimp die on their AR rounds, like Lee's Facttory Crimp Die, to bring the neck diameter closer to a true semi auto round.

    My 0.04 cents.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
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  19. Reno911

    Reno911 Hillsboro Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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  20. Mor4us

    Mor4us pnw Well-Known Member

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    Autos always need to be broken in a lot more than a bolt or lever gun will. It was a bit of trial and error getting the 308 to hold moa of paper plate for about the first 300 rounds or so but now it has settled down to sub moa @ 100 and I can get sub moa @ 400 on a good day when all the stars align. Helps to have a Zeiss with the rapid z reticle. Good glass, find the ammo or load it likes, a trigger job helps and just about any rifle will give you decent accuracy enough for hunting situations if it is not a lemon or the barrel is shot out..