What's the deal with "buyer pays transfer fees"?

[MDH]

This is not true. Gun stores have never sold stolen firearms and the reason the antis wanted UBC's is to create a registry of private gun sales under the guise of preventing felons from buying guns thru private sales (felons get their guns thru straw purchases and theft). That is why they need the make model and serial number with the UBC, even though options have been presented to achieve the same goal (thru CHLs) without a registration.

. Plenty of gun stores purchase firearms from people and resell them, or sell on consignment. In theory (though not always in practice) they conduct a stolen gun check when they take the firearm into inventory. They perform a second check when the gun is transferred on a 4473.

If someone broke into my house while I was away for several weeks, and pawned the guns immediately, it is possible that they could sell the guns before they were reported stolen. The stolen gun check on the 4473 is an additional attempt to catch that kind of thing.

If you choose to believe that it is only so the government can track which guns are going where, that is your right. I will politely disagree. And I can absolutely promise you that plenty of gun stores have sold plenty of stolen firearms, knowingly and unknowingly. The only way a company can be sure they never deal in stolen property is to only deal in factory new firearms. Any time used guns come in, so does doubt.

 

[wired]

A large percentage of guns that are stolen are not reported with the serial numbers. The owners didnt record them. Lots of stolen guns go through pawn shops and gun shops.

Any gun transferred through an FFL gets transferred into the dealers bound books and out just as though the dealer had taken possession. In doing so they are following provisions of the 68 'GCA.

 

[Koda]

. Plenty of gun stores purchase firearms from people and resell them, or sell on consignment. In theory (though not always in practice) they conduct a stolen gun check when they take the firearm into inventory. They perform a second check when the gun is transferred on a 4473.

If someone broke into my house while I was away for several weeks, and pawned the guns immediately, it is possible that they could sell the guns before they were reported stolen. The stolen gun check on the 4473 is an additional attempt to catch that kind of thing.

If you choose to believe that it is only so the government can track which guns are going where, that is your right. I will politely disagree. And I can absolutely promise you that plenty of gun stores have sold plenty of stolen firearms, knowingly and unknowingly. The only way a company can be sure they never deal in stolen property is to only deal in factory new firearms. Any time used guns come in, so does doubt.

I have no doubt that honest mistakes have been made, and I suppose there is a small possibility that a quick turnaround could result in a gun store moving a stolen gun thru the system.
but what are the odds and how often does this occur? Why would a legitimate gun store take a used gun in inventory without doing a background check to check if its stolen? There would be no need for an additional background check, except that its the law.

If you choose to believe that the govt and anti-gun politicians do not want a registry that is your right, I will politely disagree. There is no need to register a gun to run a background check on an person, If you don't believe they want to prohibit guns to prevent "gun violence" your not watching the news...

You cant legislate violence, but you can law abiding citizens... when does it end? ...then you will see what the registration is for.

No hard feelings, I really mean that when I say I politely disagree.... I just hope you give all the evidence consideration....


(notice the registration part....)

 

[MDH]

No hard feelings, I really mean that when I say I politely disagree.... I just hope you give all the evidence consideration....

No worries! I mean it too when I say politely. I've been in this system a dozen years. I've spoken to OSPs Identity Unit on hundreds of occasions (sometimes about specific checks, and sometimes just to help me understand why things are built or run the way they are), and these days I have a compliance department that works to make sure we're 100% above board. I absolutely believe that the intention of this system is to catch bad guys doing bad things. However, I really do respect your views, and your right to have, share, and discuss them.

I also believe it is entirely possible for politicians to subvert or abuse any system. In this case all I am speaking to is the design of the system and the intent of the designers as it was reported to me. As an additional data point, there are numerous times that a background check is completed, and then for any number of reasons, the transfer doesn't happen (people running out of time, insufficient funds, the wife/husband found out whats happening, it becomes clear that it is a straw purchase, etc). OSP has told me that in no terms do they consider the gun and the background check tied together. Otherwise it might cause confusion when I have the same firearm on two or even three 4473's before it actually leaves the store. I am paraphrasing second hand here, so I ask for some latitude. The background check shows that on a given day MDH was input into FICS (OSP system, and connection to NICS). The gun check shows that on a given day a certain firearm was queried against the national database for stolen guns. As I understand it, the two are not tied together in the system, but I could be mistaken. It is possible for anyone to run a stolen gun check free of charge through OSP or the FBI. OSP's website has a toll free line to call.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if they had designed this as a de facto registration it would have been designed much more cleanly. An FFL's bound books are much more direct and accurate than the submissions to FICS/NICS. I would consider the bound books more of a registry, and any FFL is required to provide open access to the ATF with 24 hrs notice.

but what are the odds and how often does this occur? Why would a legitimate gun store take a used gun in inventory without doing a background check to check if its stolen? There would be no need for an additional background check, except that its the law.

How often does this occur? That's a good question. In the case of honest FFL's, not all that often, but I did have it happen to me when I was with an LGS. We checked when the gun came in and it showed clean. A month later we did a 4473 and the gun came back stolen. That's one of the challenges. How can we be proactive about fighting actual crime without infringing too much on the rights of those who have committed no crime nor intend to? For shady gun stores/pawn shops (and they do exist, though it's often one or two shady people in a store of five or six) they may or may not do the checks to establish the gun is clean, and as Wired said above, many stolen guns don't have serials reported due to poor bookkeeping. I would hazard a guess and say that if an FFL operates for several years and deals in used guns, they will likely have an unreported, or incompletely reported stolen gun cross their books. I don't know of a better way to pin it down. I periodically see reports of gun stores raided because of a shady salesman using the same NICS approval on multiple forms, doctoring complete forms, or outright stealing guns from their store. These don't happen often, but they do happen. There are roughly 2000 FFL's in Oregon last time I looked. Many of these aren't gun shops open to the public, but some are. Of them, I can guarantee that some are engaged in shady business practices. It is unfortunate, as they provide a very negative view of the industry, and of gun owners.

 

[Koda]

OSP has told me that in no terms do they consider the gun and the background check tied together

you mean a police officer? The gun (make model and number) is part of the background check, and they keep those records for up to 5 years. That is in fact a registration. There is no law that says they cannot back up those records...

It is possible for anyone to run a stolen gun check free of charge through OSP or the FBI. OSP's website has a toll free line to call.

yes, but to clarify while this is not a background check, the OSP will not run the stolen gun check without the current owner giving their address... why is that needed? The only thing needed to determine a stolen gun is the serial number and there is no law that says they cannot keep this information.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if they had designed this as a de facto registration it would have been designed much more cleanly. An FFL's bound books are much more direct and accurate than the submissions to FICS/NICS. I would consider the bound books more of a registry, and any FFL is required to provide open access to the ATF with 24 hrs notice.

you said it best... the FFL records is in fact another registry in itself.

Consider that the antis know its very difficult to get a straight up gun registration law passed. They completely deny any law is a registration scheme, yet they refuse to work with ideas that doesn't include one... like allow gun buyers to use only their CHL to buy guns. That should speak volumes.

 

[Flopsweat]

you mean a police officer? The gun (make model and number) is part of the background check, and they keep those records for up to 5 years. That is in fact a registration. There is no law that says they cannot back up those records...

yes, but to clarify while this is not a background check, the OSP will not run the stolen gun check without the current owner giving their address... why is that needed? The only thing needed to determine a stolen gun is the serial number and there is no law that says they cannot keep this information.


you said it best... the FFL records is in fact another registry in itself.

Consider that the antis know its very difficult to get a straight up gun registration law passed. They completely deny any law is a registration scheme, yet they refuse to work with ideas that doesn't include one... like allow gun buyers to use only their CHL to buy guns. That should speak volumes.

You guys do realize that there is room in there for both of you to be right, right?

 

[Hermann]

The background check is on the buyer, not the seller. Just like buying at a dealer, I'd expect to pay the background check.

What if the buyer does not pass the background check? I would not want to be a seller who just paid for someone's background check and have them delayed or denied

That's on the buyer. You know whether or not you're going to pass a background check. If the buyer is hoping their baggage
doesn't follow them then that'll be yet another lesson in life they obviously haven't learned yet.

 

[Alexx1401]

That's on the buyer. You know whether or not you're going to pass a background check. If the buyer is hoping their baggage
doesn't follow them then that'll be yet another lesson in life they obviously haven't learned yet.

Next time I sell I will do it this way. Set the price I want and let the buyer know they pay the transfer. I am not about to fork over cash and then have them delayed or denied. In that case they would walk off and I am out. One place I used to work they did a BGC. Manager was lamenting to me one day how many guys had come in to apply and failed. Each check cost her money. I told her do it like they used to do drug tests. Make the person pay up front for it. Tell them after they pass they get the money back. This would prevent a LOT of the guys who were just hoping they would get past somehow. First shop I got drug tested they would tell you when you started. At the end of the first or second day we will send you across the street for a drug test :30 before your shift ends. If you fail we take the cost of the test out of the check you get. Saved them paying for a lot of tests on dopers.

 

[IronMonster]

You guys have made this way more complicated than it needs to be.

The transfer is part of the purchase, the purchaser is responsible for what that costs.

If the seller offers to pay all or part it's because he is being generous or simply motivated to sell, it is still the responsibility of the purchaser.

 

[Alexx1401]

You guys have made this way more complicated than it needs to be.

The transfer is part of the purchase, the purchaser is responsible for what that costs.

If the seller offers to pay all or part it's because he is being generous or simply motivated to sell, it is still the responsibility of the purchaser.

So you would walk in with your gun and buyer and offer to pay? Great except what happens if it does not go through for any reason? You really think the guy is going to pull his wallet out and pay you back? I am not willing to trust some total stranger that much. If you mean you would take all the cash up front and then walk in? So then what happens when it does not go through? You offer to give the guy back all the cash? Just what's left over after you pay the dealer? Not sure how well some would take this and it seems like it's just asking for a problem. Again I'm not nearly as trusting as you of someone I have never met. Kind of like the one time I was selling a gun and guy pulls out a check book. I told him sorry, that's not going to happen.

 

[IronMonster]

So you would walk in with your gun and buyer and offer to pay? Great except what happens if it does not go through for any reason? You really think the guy is going to pull his wallet out and pay you back? I am not willing to trust some total stranger that much. If you mean you would take all the cash up front and then walk in? So then what happens when it does not go through? You offer to give the guy back all the cash? Just what's left over after you pay the dealer? Not sure how well some would take this and it seems like it's just asking for a problem. Again I'm not nearly as trusting as you of someone I have never met. Kind of like the one time I was selling a gun and guy pulls out a check book. I told him sorry, that's not going to happen.

Again, it's simple. The buyer pays for the background check. When it clears he pays you for the gun and leaves, if it does not clear he has paid for the check and the seller is out no cash

 

[IronMonster]

There seems to be some confusion here about what's going on. You are not selling the gun as part of a background check. A background check has to be completed before you sell the gun.

The buyer pays for a background check once he clears and shows he can purchase the gun. You sell it to him

 

[Alexx1401]

Again, it's simple. The buyer pays for the background check. When it clears he pays you for the gun and leaves, if it does not clear he has paid for the check and the seller is out no cash

OK that I can see. I thought you were actually saying you would put up the cost first.

 

[Alexx1401]

There seems to be some confusion here about what's going on. You are not selling the gun as part of a background check. A background check has to be completed before you sell the gun.

The buyer pays for a background check once he clears and shows he can purchase the gun. You sell it to him

That is how I would of course do it. I see some guns advertised for xx dollars and seller saying he pays. I always assumed what they meant was they would take that amount off the final sale after the buyer paid and passed. At least I hope that's what they meant. Last gun I sold since this stupid law I just used as a trade in at my favorite shop. Got about what I figured I would get if I sold it and did not have to hope someone would show up at the place when they said they would. Still of course did not get as much as I would have if I could have just sold it, but it is what it is for now. Idaho looking better all the time.

 

[Mike aka BandAid]

My dealer charges $10 for private party sales.. just sayin..

 

[jbett98]

Every time I've sold a firearm in Oregon since the BGC law came into effect it goes like this.
Buyer and seller show up at the FFL's place of business.
The buyer checks out the gun and agrees to buy it.
The FFL records the sellers name, phone number and make/model/serial number of firearm.
Buyer forks over the payment to the seller and he is on his way.
Buyer then fills out the 4473 and waits for an all good from the OSP.
If the buyer is delayed, then the FFL holds on to the firearm until a final decision is made by the OSP.
If the buyer is denied, then the FFL contacts the seller and informs him what transpired.
I don't know the legal process for retrieving a firearm that ended up in a denial, as it's never happened to me.

 

[Mike aka BandAid]

Every time I've sold a firearm in Oregon since the BGC law came into effect it goes like this.
Buyer and seller show up at the FFL's place of business.
The buyer checks out the gun and agrees to buy it.
The FFL records the sellers name, phone number and make/model/serial number of firearm.
Buyer forks over the payment to the seller and he is on his way.
Buyer then fills out the 4473 and waits for an all good from the OSP.
If the buyer is delayed, then the FFL holds on to the firearm until a final decision is made by the OSP.
If the buyer is denied, then the FFL contacts the seller and informs him what transpired.
I don't know the legal process for retrieving a firearm that ended up in a denial, as it's never happened to me.

There is an appeals process through the FBI. They are currently reviewing appeals cases from 2015.

As for the seller, he is usually contacted and meets back at the Dealer for the return of the firearm, unless the dealer decides to cash out the buyer and sell the firearm in their store. I have had 3 buyers get denied, and 2 were actual mistakes by the FBI/Local Law Enforcement, one was a flat denial for good reason! In all those cases, the firearms were returned to the original seller without problem.

Sorry to the OP for the off topic/thread highjacking

 

[jbett98]

What happens to the denied buyers payment to the seller?

 

[Mike aka BandAid]

What happens to the denied buyers payment to the seller?

The seller returns the $$, or the dealer pays the buyer back and keeps the firearm.

 

[etrain16]

What happens to the denied buyers payment to the seller?

I asked Tigard Pawn, where I've done a number of private sales since 941, about this. Once they take the gun from me and the buyer pays, my job as seller is done. If the buyer is delayed, they hold it until they clear. If they are denied, they have the option of Tigard Pawn selling it for them on consignment, which will be at a loss to the buyer, obviously. They could try and call the seller to transfer back to them and refund the buyer, but if that happened to me, I would deduct the cost of the return transfer to me from what they paid - I am not going to pay because someone else gets denied.

So, it's on they buyer to know beforehand that they are lawfully allowed to purchase the gun, that they have proper ID and don't know of any reason to be denied. I've had two buyers delayed, one because the idiot's driver's license had the wrong address - a full year after he moved, the other for some other reason. In both cases, I had my money and headed out the door. I've never had to deal with a transaction where I might have to take the gun back - Tigard Pawn takes responsibility for the disposition of the gun once I transfer to them - if the buyer can't pass a BGC, then the loss, whatever that may be, appears to be on them.

Something to keep in mind if you buy privately, through and FFL