What's Best for 9mm Self-Defense? 115 grains or 147 grains?

[CHLChris]

Supersonic vs subsonic would be VERY important if fired indoors. I like the Critical Duty 135gr. It is maximized for speed, but kept subsonic out of handgun barrels. Subsonic will still be loud enough to damage your hearing, but substantially less damaging than supersonic.

 

[oremike]

I figure the 9mm was designed to shoot 124gr bullets so that's what I shoot in mine, XTP's for defense and RN's for targets.

 

[Jnarowe]

Supersonic vs subsonic would be VERY important if fired indoors. I like the Critical Duty 135gr. It is maximized for speed, but kept subsonic out of handgun barrels. Subsonic will still be loud enough to damage your hearing, but substantially less damaging than supersonic.

I need to pay more attention to that.

 

[Onramp]

Man - there is some good thinking on the previous pages. So I'm no expert, but how I choose my SD ammo is based on the foot pounds of energy (velocity and bullet weight), then the ability to penetrate, (fluffy jackets, jean material, ribs etc), then expansion/permanent wound channel.

My thinking is like this for the first part. I am standing facing a major league baseball player who is going to hit me with a bat in the rib cage. Based on his speed at impact and the weight of the bat (meaning ability to continue at that speed thru my ribs), he will be generating some level of foot pounds of energy. Would I rather be hit with 245 ft/lbs of energy, or 380 ft/lbs? Most boxes of ammo carry this energy number somewhere on the box. The higher the better generally, at least until firing the actual round becomes difficult or your pistol won't actually survive firing the round enough to practice with it.

Then there is the penetration angle. A .177 pellet fired from an air rifle may not even penetrate my leather vest. A .223 fired from an M4 might be a thru and thru tiny hole if it doesn't start bouncing off bone or some such). However a .45 hollow point that expands to .600 or .700 is really going to make a mess of things, not to mention the "baseball bat" effect of the initial hit from a heavier bullet.

Last, (or really maybe better placed as second, but what the heck) is the bullet expansion/permanent wound channel. The bigger the permanent wound channel, the faster the target will suffer a loss of blood pressure (a big wound channel quickly fills with blood. There is a specific volume of blood in a body, and if it rushes to fill a void, you can imagine the consequences).

OK, so now to find out will work for you and your particular handgun. If you have a glock 17 or 19, obviously you have a lot of rounds in your magazine. If you have a 1911 in .45 you have fewer rounds but kinda like an older batter - maybe not so fast, but he carries a heavy bat that he can swing pretty well. For whatever handgun, after you are happy with the characteristics of the cartridge, can you actually shoot it. A +P+ in my .45 hurts like a beetch to shoot, so will I practice with it? Will it beat the stuffin's outta my pistol so that it falls apart when I actually need some SD help? In my glock 19, will the cartridge perform reliably and consistently? Will it break the bank if I choose to practice with it occasionally? is the case crimped so that if I rechamber a round occasionally the bullet won't be beat back into the case?

All good questions for you to consider. Personally, I carry a Lehigh defense Extreme Defender 9MM loaded by Underwood in my glock 19. Medium weight bat that has good penetration and leaves a hell of a wound channel. I'm ok with the medium ft pounds of energy as long as I can pump enough of them into the target to stop the threat, and the felt recoil is minimal, and the actual recoil is low enough that I can get back on target quickly for the next shot.

There are more characteristics to consider, but all are pretty minor. I hope this helps more than frustrates. Not easy, but fun to explore. Good luck.

 

[DHart]

Don't worry about energy. What you want is reliable penetration and only then, expansion if you can get it.

I would go with 124 GR. +P in Gold Dot, HST, or Ranger.

Alternative would be 147 GR. +P in Gold Dot, HST, or Ranger.

 

[Vorpalis]

The best info I've found on defensive ammo is from Dr. Gary Roberts, who goes by DocGKR on various forums. He trained in ballistics analysis under Dr. Marty Fackler while in the military, and his day job now is testing and qualifying ammo for various police departments and federal agencies. So yes, he knows his stuff.
A whole bunch of his work can be found as stickies over at Pistol Forum, Ammunition. Beyond the results of his testing, in terms of the breadth of knowledge to be gained, I consider those posts right up there with Chinn's The Machine Gun.

The gist of his recommendations for 9mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Speer G2 147 gr PT
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

Notice there is only one 115gr load mentioned? That's important – read-up!
Also worth noting: Federal Hydra Shok is an older, inferior design to HST, and Remington's Golden Saber Bonded is superior to its non-bonded sibling.

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Supersonic vs subsonic would be VERY important if fired indoors.

That's smart thinking, but the supersonic crack is tiny compared to the "uncorking" noise: supersonic 9mm produces roughly 155-160dB from a handgun, and subsonic produces roughly 150-155dB, only sparing you 5-10dB. 140dB is the threshold for hearing loss from impulse sound, and since the decibel is a logarithmic scale, even the best-case scenario of 150dB with subsonic 9mm will still be ten times louder than that 140dB threshold. Deaf or deafer is still deaf, so super or sub doesn't matter much without a suppressor.

 

[XManSV]

I gathered and compared one shot stop (which includes morgue) data on this very question a few years back. Turned out 124gr going just as fast as you can make it go is best.

I like Speer GoldDots and I get major power factor out of them in my 5.5" SIG X5 Tactical using HS6. Make sure you have a fully supported chamber and the right gun for stuff like that.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I gathered and compared one shot stop (which includes morgue) data on this very question a few years back. Turned out 124gr going just as fast as you can make it go is best.

I like Speer GoldDots and I get major power factor out of them in my 5.5" SIG X5 Tactical using HS6. Make sure you have a fully supported chamber and the right gun for stuff like that.

Yea, leave it to the ol' FBI.. blaming a quite fine but humble performer (the old standard pressure 115gr Silvertip.. I forget what gen) for a generation of shenanigans.. and forgetting that the stopper only penetrates like 7" or whatever.. I forget.
Oh and edit.. it was and is assuredly very, very loud.. being shot out of a 3-4" barrel.. and was certainly not subsonic. lol

 

[CHLChris]

the best-case scenario of 150dB with subsonic 9mm will still be ten times louder than that 140dB threshold. Deaf or deafer is still deaf, so super or sub doesn't matter much without a suppressor.

One does not go deaf from a few rounds in a self defense gun use, but you do sustain damage. You supported my point but then came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter. Well it does...at least to someone who cares about their hearing.

Thanks for your post, it was awesome!

 

[Norm0931]

I've been using the Liberty Defense 50gr 9mm for about 2 years now. Amazing stuff, considerably different ballistics than standard 9mm. IMO an amazing defense round; punches through body armor, 11" penetration of the base, 4" spread on the "petals."

 

[CHLChris]

I really like the NRA magazines. I take American Rifleman. Have you ever noticed that when they test ammo through any gun they are reviewing for accuracy that they always seem to use obscure crap that nobody uses? I never see them use Speer or HST or Winchester Ranger. Annoying.

 

[Norm0931]

One does not go deaf from a few rounds in a self defense gun use, but you do sustain damage. You supported my point but then came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter. Well it does...at least to someone who cares about their hearing.

Thanks for your post, it was awesome!

Actually, lot of documented physiology that in a shooting situation your body will anticipate the noise and effectively turn off your ears to protect itself. Obviously, it's not perfect, but lots of documented cases. That's why when you look at AARs, incident reports, etc, the shooter often times doesn't know how many rounds were fired or remember hearing shouts, screams, and gun shots.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Here's an interesting 20 year old 9mm load.
I would imagine that there's worse these days.
That was a joke, Belgian style. no patent pending.. lol

Oh f me. I tried to embed/link but no joy.. youtube..

VBR-Belgium 9mm Armor Piercing bullets 2

 

[CHLChris]

Actually, lot of documented physiology that in a shooting situation your body will anticipate the noise and effectively turn off your ears to protect itself. Obviously, it's not perfect, but lots of documented cases. That's why when you look at AARs, incident reports, etc, the shooter often times doesn't know how many rounds were fired or remember hearing shouts, screams, and gun shots.

Yes, that's called audio exclusion. That means your brain chooses not to perceive the booms as a function of placing the maximum portion of attention forward on the threat, to the exclusion of peripheral vision, hearing the events around you, and the perception of time.

Audio exclusion does NOT mean that your physical ear does not accept and respond to the sound waves that physically are interacting with your ear's physiology. Even though the BRAIN does not perceive, in many cases, the gun shots or the pain associated with 160dB cracks, the ear organ DOES receive the damage.

The ears are not "turned off," the brain chooses to exclude the signals from being processed. Those are very different things.

 

[CHLChris]

The ProArms Podcast (with Massad Ayoob) interviewed a police officer who put several fatal rounds into a BG from inside the cop car. He didn't remember the shots at the time, didn't really "hear" them. But he reports in the interview that he has significant hearing loss after the incident.

Listen to it HERE. It is a great interview to listen to why he has dropped 45acp (Glock 21 with 3 mags) for 9mm (Glock 17 with over 100 rounds on him.).

 

[Joe13]

Something to think about, LEO only uses what they are given - that doesn't always equate to 'best'.

 

[scott_see]

I am a little confused?

Here's what Massad Ayoob has to say:

I've found the Winchester Ranger-T (and the SXT before it) 127 grain +P+ to hit so far above its weight class, that it has become my #1 favorite in 9mm for the last several years. Gold Dot 124 +P IMHO is a close second. The HST is promising in 124 grain +P but I haven't personally run across any shootings with it, though the HST may well be the best of the 147 grain subsonics right now if the experiences of departments like Portland, OR Police Bureau and St. Paul, MN PD are any indication.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I am a little confused?

Here's what Massad Ayoob has to say:

I've found the Winchester Ranger-T (and the SXT before it) 127 grain +P+ to hit so far above its weight class, that it has become my #1 favorite in 9mm for the last several years. Gold Dot 124 +P IMHO is a close second. The HST is promising in 124 grain +P but I haven't personally run across any shootings with it, though the HST may well be the best of the 147 grain subsonics right now if the experiences of departments like Portland, OR Police Bureau and St. Paul, MN PD are any indication.

Because a +p+ 147 wouldn't be subsonic?
best I got. lol

 

[CHLChris]

I've never heard of a 147+p+. I'm sure there is one, but I've mostly seen that famous 127gr Winchester +p+ and I've seen several 115gr +p+ offerings. But I've mostly not seen 147gr+p+.

 

[Max713]

Supersonic vs subsonic would be VERY important if fired indoors. I like the Critical Duty 135gr. It is maximized for speed, but kept subsonic out of handgun barrels. Subsonic will still be loud enough to damage your hearing, but substantially less damaging than supersonic.

Yea... There will not be any discernible difference between supersonic volume vs subsonic volume at the shooters ear, when shooting unsuppressed. Especially indoors. Both would be damaging.