What would force you to leave your home..

[Sgt Nambu]

This would be a possibility but consider this - those outside and on the move and going to utilize resources in much greater amounts than those who can stay in one place and foraging for supplies will require a large portion of one's day. This will slow movement to a crawl for them. I'll bet a three mile day would be a major chore.

Foraging? Foraging would have to be at gun point.

 

[jbett98]

Don't forget the navigable waterways near most cities. I have a boat and close access to the Columbia River.
If I was forced to leave my home, that would be one of my first options if there wasn't a threat of a tsunami.

 

[CoastRange57]

A force of that nature would have to be lead by a strong leader, someone with the mental, physical and psychological attributes to pull them together as a cohesive unit. That said, it would take time to form such a unit. There could be no breach of command and order, such a breach would demand swift and harsh retribution. Only through such strength could a band swiftly gathered together work and perform as one unit. There would be issues and insurrections, as such a unit swiftly gathered would be of unknown backgrounds and character. Again, it would take a very strong hand to accomplish this, but it could be accomplished given time.

Excellent points. They lend credence to the fact that a cohesive unit, formed prior to need, defending one suitably outfitted location would be better than a hastily formed unit constantly on the move. Movement of such a unit, would be completely tactical at all times, and would result in higher numbers of contacts, which is inevitably going to result in higher casualties,and rapid depletion of supplies and defense materials.

Suitable division of responsibilities would require appropriate numbers of support roles for the active participants. This and the logistics of that support for a hastily formed unit would lead to more problematic situations.

 

[CoastRange57]

Don't forget the navigable waterways near most cities. I have a boat and close access to the Columbia River.
If I was forced to leave my home, that would be one of my first options if there wasn't a threat of a tsunami.

This is supported in some texts about the subject. Movement of people and supplies by watercraft is very efficient in the directness and load carrying capabilities of the vessels. Again you could only expect to utilize fuel powered vessels for a limited time due to fuel needs, but the use of human powered or sail craft would give you some great mobility, and move you away from the masses.

There would be tactical issues of exposure and all, but those could be over come by moving at night and with a well though out strategy for movement.

 

[RVTECH]

Foraging? Foraging would have to be at gun point.

I am thinking the foragers will encounter fewer foragees the farther they get from the city. Also as soon as the foragees realize they are being hunted they will scatter and flee like wild rats. I am thinking the pickings are going to get slim not far beyond the treeline.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

Excellent points. They lend credence to the fact that a cohesive unit, formed prior to need, defending one suitably outfitted location would be better than a hastily formed unit constantly on the move. Movement of such a unit, would be completely tactical at all times, and would result in higher numbers of contacts, which is inevitably going to result in higher casualties,and rapid depletion of supplies and defense materials.

Suitable division of responsibilities would require appropriate numbers of support roles for the active participants. This and the logistics of that support for a hastily formed unit would lead to more problematic situations.

That is exactly right! And, those fortunate and smart enough to live in the country and can band together certainly should! However, in my imaginary band of city survivors, scouts out! Find the weak, don't mess with the strong! And always expand the ranks until you can take on the strong.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

I am thinking the foragers will encounter fewer foragees the farther they get from the city. Also as soon as the foragees realize they are being hunted they will scatter and flee like wild rats. I am thinking the pickings are going to get slim not far beyond the treeline.

RV, that is sure to happen! But within the narrow limits of my little, devils advocate scenario, "City John" (LOL!) isn't going anywhere near a tree line or woods for that matter! There is no food there and us city dwellers know that! That is why "City John" and his crew have conscripts! THEY are the hunters!!! A pretty well armed farm would probably have a shotgun, .22 and a deer rifle. They are the initial prey. Then bigger and better. Remember, in this scenario the first goal is to create a fighting force large enough to be able to resist "hunters"! SalmonriverJohn says it could be done and I absolutely believe him!

 

[Sgt Nambu]

Don't forget the navigable waterways near most cities. I have a boat and close access to the Columbia River.
If I was forced to leave my home, that would be one of my first options if there wasn't a threat of a tsunami.

That's right, jbett, I live within 1 1/2 miles, as the crow flies, of a couple of thousand boats! Operative word here commandeer!

 

[RVTECH]

Choose leadership wisely.

BUT - can we invoke Law 7 and Challenge For Leadership Of The Clan?

 

[1stIDFMP]

I'm thinking, I wish salmonriverjohn, Sgt. Nambu, and RVTECH, were my neighbors.........

 

[Sgt Nambu]

I'm thinking, I wish salmonriverjohn, Sgt. Nambu, and RVTECH, were my neighbors.........

Gosh man, you don't want me! I come from a long line of sissys and bleeders! I'm so old people mistake me for a prune! I'm so busted up that my mile is about 7hrs! And, I'm not really qualified like some of the others. I was a recon sgt in Artillary Liaison. Heck! Although I did my best to be a good soldier I was a draftee! Also, I served in the Korean DMZ. Dangerous enough, but I have never been shelled, mortared or faced a human wave assault! I'm very happy about that, by the way! Anyway, just infiltrators!
I learned a lot about field fortifications, how to call and adjust arty and how to soldier in a killing cold climate. I've studied survivalism since 1968, bu as you can see not a leader of men except as a civilian. Heck, I probably want to be your neighbor!

 

[RVTECH]

I'm thinking, I wish salmonriverjohn, Sgt. Nambu, and RVTECH, were my neighbors.........

An I am most certainly not moving. I already have an excellent bikini wax clientele built up here.

 

[salmonriverjohn]

An I am most certainly not moving. I already have an excellent bikini wax clientele built up here.

:drink:Well done Sir, well done.

 

[salmonriverjohn]

Gosh man, you don't want me! I come from a long line of sissys and bleeders! I'm so old people mistake me for a prune! I'm so busted up that my mile is about 7hrs! And, I'm not really qualified like some of the others. I was a recon sgt in Artillary Liaison. Heck! Although I did my best to be a good soldier I was a draftee! Also, I served in the Korean DMZ. Dangerous enough, but I have never been shelled, mortared or faced a human wave assault! I'm very happy about that, by the way! Anyway, just infiltrators!
I learned a lot about field fortifications, how to call and adjust arty and how to soldier in a killing cold climate. I've studied survivalism since 1968, bu as you can see not a leader of men except as a civilian. Heck, I probably want to be your neighbor!

Sarge, the wisdom of age is worth more than its weight in gold which can be carried. To carry those of such wisdom upon shoulders is far wiser than to carry the gold upon the burdened shoulders if all the gold in the land cannot bring such wisdom. SRJ.

 

[U201491]

Don't forget the navigable waterways near most cities. I have a boat and close access to the Columbia River.
If I was forced to leave my home, that would be one of my first options if there wasn't a threat of a tsunami.

You are a sitting duck on the water so to speak.
Food is abundant but you will need to learn what is and is not edible, and be prepared to spend most of your waking hours finding it. Every wild huckleberry has a worm in it, consider it protein. (yes they do)
You will eat and even enjoy things that now would probably turn your stomach.
After a couple months there will be very little game left.
Learn to ghillie down and be visible only when you have no choice or have the edge.

 

[revjen45]

My wife and I have discussed bug out vs. hunker down and decided that hunker down beats hitting the road with hundreds of thousands of desperate Birkenstock Brigaders, gang bangers, and assorted panicked couch potatoes who think they can live off the land because they watched Jeremiah Johnson a few years back.
However, while it hasn't been mentioned in the LSM, Fukushima is still just cooking way and getting worse, not better. It is not too much of a stretch to see a massive plume of hot material crossing the Pacific to WA, OR, etc. THAT could change the equation enough to make leaving the only feasible choice.

 

[unklekippy]

RV, that is sure to happen! But within the narrow limits of my little, devils advocate scenario, "City John" (LOL!) isn't going anywhere near a tree line or woods for that matter! There is no food there and us city dwellers know that! That is why "City John" and his crew have conscripts! THEY are the hunters!!! A pretty well armed farm would probably have a shotgun, .22 and a deer rifle. They are the initial prey. Then bigger and better. Remember, in this scenario the first goal is to create a fighting force large enough to be able to resist "hunters"! SalmonriverJohn says it could be done and I absolutely believe him!

I'm sorry, did you just say that there is no food in the woods? There is so much edible stuff in an acre of forest that it isn't funny. Also, the bunnies and squirrels won't shoot you for taking the food.

I hope I misunderstood, but it sounds like you are advocating looting the city when it comes time. That's all fine and well, but I will stick to the woods, where no matter what happens to my supplies, there is so much to eat that I will grow at, not starve. 1 acre of forest land has so much edible stuff that anyone starving in the city within 2 days of whatever scenario caused the chaos would be thankful to have 1/4 of it.

 

[CoastRange57]

My wife and I have discussed bug out vs. hunker down and decided that hunker down beats hitting the road with hundreds of thousands of desperate Birkenstock Brigaders, gang bangers, and assorted panicked couch potatoes who think they can live off the land because they watched Jeremiah Johnson a few years back.

You have to look at this scenario in the context of how long is it going to take for it to develop and then how long and how severe the execution phase.

In whatever situation causes interruption in the food distribution channel, the fuel channel, and if your utilities are compromised, the energy distribution channel, How long will it take for the masses to react to food shortage...? Store shelves will be bare in 24 hours or less. That takes that option off the table.

Fuel will be gone in the same time period, how long can you make your full tank last, but if bridge and surfaces are compromised..how mobile are you really going to be?

If utilities are off, water and power..water being the main one...who has enough water stored to last them 3 days or more for consumption and bare minimum cooking levels ? Who has enough batteries stored up to provide a minimum level of light for at least your own security operations?

The dangerous ones will be the ones who have no clue how to survive, but are armed. Desperation will drive their behavior, and you will have to be prepared to meet that with hopefully a superior force, but more importantly, a better trained and mentally prepared force that will allow you to repel with a minimum of force application and manpower requirements.

And every one go back and read Salted Weapons post. Then read it again, and again until you clearly understand what he is saying. Some of the best words I have read on here ever. Thank you for posting that.

The part about underestimating is huge. The same way I like to roll. I may be a bit older, a bit gray, and appear that I could be a mark, but also projecting enough aurora that you will really have to think twice about violating my personal space with bad intent. You have no idea how it will turn out for you. This is a very big advantage.

Restoration of some semblance of order will take time. 24 hours goes by pretty fast, and most will do well. 48 hours will start to bring out water and food problems. Going out form there, it is like a fire with a fuel load that will double in size every 3 minutes, so at 4 days of unrest, natural disaster or what ever causes it, things are going to be a bit.....unpredictable at best.

 

[RVTECH]

The more I consider all this, and as previously mentioned, the severity of it I do NOT believe there would be as many heading for the woods as we might think. Put it in perspective - of the entire population that lives relatively close to the mountains/woods very few even enter the woods for recreation. There no doubt would be a few but it is my belief those who do not normally use the woods as part of their lifestyle are not going to consider it for survival, and much less if they are not even 'thinking' survival as an eventuality. I believe there would be people heading to the woods from the more populated areas but these would probably consist of those who have a certain degree of experience with camping, hunting and the outdoors in general but those with zero skills are probably not going to attempt it. And those of us who already live close to the woods in rural areas will only go into the woods for the resources we need - and bring them back home for use. Kind of an element of my one - to - ten scale theory I previously posted.

 

[Grunwald]

OK! Thank you for your family's service to our nation! Now time for supposing! Suppose that you, your family and throw in your neighbors too, live in a town or city. Ok, everything collapses people are fleeing the city! Your job is to select the best candidates (armed with gear) as they pass through a choke point and "draft" 50-100 of them, train them as you move and coalesce them into a credible fighting force. This isn't a sweety pie "hey wanna join up?" this is you are coming with us or your gear is! It is an ambush! Do you think that you guys have the experience and training to do that? I would bet that you do. Now, more supposing! Does anyone here suppose that every city and town has people just as well trained, motivated, experienced, and mean as John and his family ( I mean "mean" in a kick azz way, not spiritually)? I guarantee that there are some! Sure, nearly all, refugees, bugger outers, etc are going to die almost immediately. But some will live and even thrive. Living in a city does not automatically make one weak. Supposing I shut up now!

Pull this crap on me and I will play along......but only long enough to kill you. I am pretty sure that there are others that would do the same.

If I spot your trap ahead of time and witness that sort of behavior I would also judge you and your party to be parasites and dangerous to all. In that case I would also trim your ranks from long distance.