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Post #19


Nah....rimmed cartridges don't cut it for me.

Why?

They need to be stacked correctly in a magazine. Yup, even without the "pressure" of a battle. I still manage to get jams while using my MN.
They aren't exactly easy to strip off a stripper, into your rifle (example : MN vs Mauser).

BUT, But, but....(for the rimmed cartridge) extraction and maybe manufacturing tolerances might have a slight plus going for them.

Whatever.

Aloha, Mark
if you are getting jams, your interrupter is not properly fitted
stacking of rimmed cases in the magazine is not critical
your local - we can get together some time and I'll show you
I use old single piece interrupters off old M91s in my 91/30s but I can make the 2 piece M91/30 work also
 
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Two that I would consider are the 6.5 Swede and 7.5 Swiss. Both are very accurate and enough man stopping power, even through heavy winter coats.

The later developed .308 is comparable to the 7.5 Swiss and the later 6.5 creedmoor is comparable to the 6.5 Swede, which shows they were likely ahead of their time imo.
 
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I'll go with Ian's paradigm that the answer depends on definitions, primarily "best".

Most optimized for the role of a rank-n-file infantry rifle? 7.92 Kurz for the reason given. Worth noting is that the 7.62x39, whose proliferation is cited as Exhibit A for the Kurz, was conceived before the Kurz was issued (July vs. October '43), designed before significant real-world exposure to it, and should be considered an independent parallel development - as often happens in the history of inventions - rather than a direct response to the Kurz, let alone a copy of it.

Most optimized for the bigger context of logistics and MG support? Not the Kurz, but I'm not well-versed enough in the differences between the various full-size rounds (303, 30-06, 7.62x54, 7.92x57, aso.) to have an informed opinion on them. I'll venture that the rimless ones have a slight advantage here.

Most optimized for a rank-n-file infantry rifle that was actually issued to the rank and foul? The Sturmgewehr never had the numbers, and the SVT not only lacked the numbers but inexperienced users too often lacked some of their fingers, handing this win to the 30-06, thanks to the M1 Garand's sweet spot of quality and quantity.

Most reliable? On this point I have to wonder if Western calibers like 303 British and 30-06 would start showing mechanical reliability problems similarly to the 7.92x57 - feeding issues, cracked receivers (which may or may not have anything to do with the cartridge itself, I don't know) - when used in a more challenging setting, namely the Eastern European front, where the 7.62x54R still worked.

Most prolific? I don't have this exact hard data, but this notion seems plausible enough to be worth investigating: that more careers were ended by a 7.62x54R than by all Western Allies' weapons combined.

As a footnote, it's also worth mentioning that the 1891-vintage 54R not only was the second-longest-serving standard infantry rifle cartridge in WW2 (303 British appears to be oldest, by three years), but is the only one of this bunch still in military service today (EDIT: arguable. Apparently some Pakistani units use the Kurz, and sub-Saharan Africa seems to have a bit of everything everywhere with little accountability for who uses it, how, and whether they're official military or teenagers with Technicals). Economic factors had an influence, sure, but for doing what it says on the box, 131 years of use (and counting) is a meaningful point.
 
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Most prolific? I don't have this exact hard data, but this notion seems plausible enough to be worth investigating: that more careers were ended by a 7.62x54R than by all Western Allies' weapons combined.
I know I'm preaching to the choir but I'll say it anyway.
The eastern front was a war the likes of which most likely haven't seen and can hardly imagine. My ex co workers were old school Russian one (who was a pita) was a political officer on Russian sub's. Anyway the other two spoke better English and both of their fathers had either died or got both legs shot off in the battle of Stalingrad.
my point is it's guaranteed that this fact likely heavily swayed the stats on how many kills the venerable 54R has taken which is nothing to sneeze at. So you gotta take the stats with a grain of salt. All things being equal really there's too many factors to really answer this question definitively, all we can do is surmise.
 
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I am lucky enough to own a 1942 Tula Mosin 91/30, not refurbished, but in original condition
has scars from a barb wire fence on the stock, where a soldier threw it over the fence to allow his comrades to climb over
has a yard of bayonet still on the barrel
trigger sucks
the dog collars are pushed through bare woods, no Sling Escutcheons
as used at Stalingrad
have a wooden case of Russian 54R ammo from 1976 from factory 188
I take it out rarely just to show visitors what an original Mosin was like - not a post war refurb or a burned out barrel, Mosin frozen bolt Big 5 reject
you would be surprised how well they actually shot with the bayonet attached
Mosin sticky bolt is usually caused by a pitted chamber from the old corrosive ammo, this one does not suffer from this situation

20201125_124106.jpg 20201125_124127.jpg 1942 Tula 91-30.JPG 1942 Tula-2.JPG P1030650.JPG
 
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I am lucky enough to own a 1942 Tula Mosin 91/30, not refurbished, but in original condition
has scars from a barb wire fence on the stock, where a soldier threw it over the fence to allow his comrades to climb over
has a yard of bayonet still on the barrel
trigger sucks
the dog collars are pushed through bare woods, no Sling Escutcheons
as used at Stalingrad
have a wooden case of Russian 54R ammo from 1976 from factory 188
I take it out rarely just to show visitors what an original Mosin was like - not a post war refurb or a burned out barrel, Mosin frozen bolt Big 5 reject
you would be surprised how well they actually shot with the bayonet attached
Mosin sticky bolt is usually caused by a pitted chamber from the old corrosive ammo, this one does not suffer from this situation

View attachment 1256147 View attachment 1256148 View attachment 1256149 View attachment 1256150 View attachment 1256158
and you can quick load ammo from stripper clips and stacking of the rimed cartridges doesn't mater because it has an original 1942 tuned disconnector
 
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I know I'm preaching to the choir but I'll say it anyway.
The eastern front was a war the likes of which most likely haven't seen and can hardly imagine. My ex co workers were old school Russian one (who was a pita) was a political officer on Russian sub's. Anyway the other two spoke better English and both of their fathers had either died or got both legs shot off in the battle of Stalingrad.
my point is it's guaranteed that this fact likely heavily swayed the stats on how many kills the venerable 54R has taken which is nothing to sneeze at. So you gotta take the stats with a grain of salt. All things being equal really there's too many factors to really answer this question definitively, all we can do is surmise.
Less than six months in Stalingrad alone saw more casualties than Americans and British in both world wars put together, to say nothing of the manner of the deaths and injuries. Yes, the whole point is about the sheer scale of the 54R's use. What that says about the quality of the round... well, it worked. It worked when issued to untrained peasants via "pick up the one dropped in front of you". And it worked in the hands of such folk as L'udmila Pavlichenko, Simo Häyhä, and Vasili Zaitsev, from none of whom do we find much in the way of complaints about the round.

From what I gather of combat reports and statistics, if any single cartridge deserves credit for winning the war, it's probably the 122x785R, but if we had to pick an infantry rifle caliber, it'd have to be the 54R just by association. Whatever its flaws, aside from being on the general overpowered-full-size bandwagon, they weren't very relevant.

I am lucky enough to own a 1942 Tula Mosin 91/30, not refurbished, but in original condition
has scars from a barb wire fence on the stock, where a soldier threw it over the fence to allow his comrades to climb over
has a yard of bayonet still on the barrel
trigger sucks
the dog collars are pushed through bare woods, no Sling Escutcheons
as used at Stalingrad
have a wooden case of Russian 54R ammo from 1976 from factory 188
I take it out rarely just to show visitors what an original Mosin was like - not a post war refurb or a burned out barrel, Mosin frozen bolt Big 5 reject
you would be surprised how well they actually shot with the bayonet attached
Mosin sticky bolt is usually caused by a pitted chamber from the old corrosive ammo, this one does not suffer from this situation

View attachment 1256147 View attachment 1256148 View attachment 1256149 View attachment 1256150 View attachment 1256158
I too have an unrestored, heavily used 1942 M91/30, though mine's from Ijevsk, and way more beat up. Is yours counterbored? How do you know where it was used? I understand serial numbers were somewhat randomized to hamper German intelligence efforts, records were spotty to begin with and many didn't survive, or if they did, have been gathering decades of dust deep in the bowels of archives guarded by - putting it politely - generally uncooperative people. Mine oozes stories almost as much as cosmoline, but I have no idea what they are.

Stripper clips are nearly impossible to use with it, though my clips are brand new, and once bent out a bit they work ok. In 14+ years of shooting it I've never had feeding issues, or had to think about rim interference in any way except academically.
 
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Less than six months in Stalingrad alone saw more casualties than Americans and British in both world wars put together, to say nothing of the manner of the deaths and injuries. Yes, the whole point is about the sheer scale of the 54R's use. What that says about the quality of the round... well, it worked. It worked when issued to untrained peasants via "pick up the one dropped in front of you". And it worked in the hands of such folk as L'udmila Pavlichenko, Simo Häyhä, and Vasili Zaitsev, from none of whom do we find much in the way of complaints about the round.

From what I gather of combat reports and statistics, if any single cartridge deserves credit for winning the war, it's probably the 122x785R, but if we had to pick an infantry rifle caliber, it'd have to be the 54R just by association. Whatever its flaws, aside from being on the general overpowered-full-size bandwagon, they weren't very relevant.


I too have an unrestored, heavily used 1942 M91/30, though mine's from Ijevsk, and way more beat up. Is yours counterbored? How do you know where it was used? I understand serial numbers were somewhat randomized to hamper German intelligence efforts, records were spotty to begin with and many didn't survive, or if they did, have been gathering decades of dust deep in the bowels of archives guarded by - putting it politely - generally uncooperative people. Mine oozes stories almost as much as cosmoline, but I have no idea what they are.

Stripper clips are nearly impossible to use with it, though my clips are brand new, and once bent out a bit they work ok. In 14+ years of shooting it I've never had feeding issues, or had to think about rim interference in any way except academically.
there is no way to know what Mosins were used at Stalingrad - except in 1942, Russia was short of rifles and Tula was only 500 miles away, cranking out Mosins ever day

mine is not counterbored - has a nice barrel and crown - chamber looks smooth also - but I ran JB cleaning compound down the bore about 100 times
the trigger guard has it's numbers overstamped, but the rest are all matching numbers
I do not have a mousetrap spring on my trigger

an interesting point - the bolt on my Fin M39 will slid in easily into this Mosin and give it a match grade trigger performance
I've done that a couple time to impress shooter who tell me how bad Mosin Triggers are
 
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I’ve always thought it interesting that the venerable old Mosin-Nagant is about the most maligned and hated surplus rifle out there. I didn’t realize just how much until a thread on this forum a few years back. “Garbage rod” and “junk rifle” they called it, one guy in particular.

I think it had mostly to do with the fact that you could buy them by the bushel for $50 each a few years back, and they were popular with the “poors”, and Bubba especially liked to doll them up into wannabe tacticool.

Sure, they’re heavy, clunky, and rather primitive, but it’s hard to argue with success. They were designed for use in extreme Russian weather by untrained conscripts, and they filled that role well enough. Reminds me, I need to take my old M28 and shoot it one of these days. It was my first surplus rifle, bought it 30+ years ago.
 
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I’ve always thought it interesting that the venerable old Mosin-Nagant is about the most maligned and hated surplus rifle out there. I didn’t realize just how much until a thread on this forum a few years back. “Garbage rod” and “junk rifle” they called it, one guy in particular.

I think it had mostly to do with the fact that you could buy them by the bushel for $50 each a few years back, and they were popular with the “poors”, and Bubba especially liked to doll them up into wannabe tacticool.

Sure, they’re heavy, clunky, and rather primitive, but it’s hard to argue with success. They were designed for use in extreme Russian weather by untrained conscripts, and they filled that role well enough. Reminds me, I need to take my old M28 and shoot it one of these days. It was my first surplus rifle, bought it 30+ years ago.
the Fin M28 is a fine example of a Mosin, your lucky to own one

P1030951.JPG
 
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There is no definitive answer to ridiculous questions like this. Posing the question only only cements my opinion there are more adolescent boys on here than any of us would care to admit. I expect the future "what's best? " will devolve into super heroes, bubble gum, skateboard trucks and first person shooter video games.
 
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There is no definitive answer to ridiculous questions like this. Posing the question only only cements my opinion there are more adolescent boys on here than any of us would care to admit. I expect the future "what's best? " will devolve into super heroes, bubble gum, skateboard trucks and first person shooter video games.
 
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There is no definitive answer to ridiculous questions like this. Posing the question only only cements my opinion there are more adolescent boys on here than any of us would care to admit. I expect the future "what's best? " will devolve into super heroes, bubble gum, skateboard trucks and first person shooter video games.

Maturity.jpg
 
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bare with me, this does have to do with the best WW2 cartridge

I was working in Las Vegas about 5 years ago and my associate received a cell phone call from his wife
the Henderson Police were at their door with a warrant and the REAL CSI Las Vegas was with them
when he got home, the police asked him if he owned a Mosin Nagant 91/30 - and he said yes

a home owner in Henderson had complained that a bullet came through their Livingroom wall, missed their kids and imbedded itself in a wooden stud in their garage
it was a 148 gn, .310 diameter bullet, commonly used in the Mosin Nagant
the police had a warrant to search his home for a Mosin - CSI had lasered the .30 cal hole in the end destination and found it came through his fence from his bedroom wall.
the Police and CSI accompanied him into his bedroom, turned on the laser and it went through his fence, through his bedroom wall, BUT THEN they noticed the laser also illuminated a .30 cal hole in his bedroom closet and HIS kids room and they found an entrance hole in the outer wall of HIS garage, going out into the desert beyond Henderson.

SOOO - someone out in the desert East of Henderson had shot his Mosin, which traveled over a mile, went through my associates home, through his garage and two bedrooms, and across the street, through another home and finally imbedded in a wooden stud in THEIR garage.
 
I can't remember (or find it again since I JUST read it) but the sticky chamber isn't usually pits is lawyer or dried schmoo or "mung" as mark Novak would say. But my first mosin I believed that one was 1942 as well had a really bad bolt when I got it. Whatever they used in the armory for storage really sticks. I had to clean the piss out of it with steel wool and acetone and then it ran perfect. My last one which I basically got for free when I bought I a bunch of other stuff ran fine. I read this was a common issue when I looked into the bolt sticking. Been years since I looked into it though. I don't doubt at all that some are heavily pitted.
 

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