What Truck

[3MTA3]

Large or small?

Full size pickup - your Dodge recommendation (or equivalent) looks to be spot on with what I was looking for

Budget?

Depends on the vehicle, but I'm going to start pricing the 2500/3500 6BT and doing homework on known issues/critical components.

What do you consider "reasonable" for towing? I.E., what do you want to tow with it, how far, how often?

I'd like to be able to tow a camping trailer, horse trailer, or a load of wood with a loaded bed. Not often unless SHTF happens, but would rather have the truck not break a sweat when I want it to hump something heavy up a hill.

Excellent writeup Heretic!!! Lots of very useful info, and you helped a lot with questions I had about the Cummins diesel (was reading this: Cummins Diesel Motor - Diesel Power Magazine while you were posting).

 

[3MTA3]

BTW - at least some of the 24V Cummins Dodges can be converted back to mechanical injection, especially the earlier ones. ...

And then you answered most of the questions I was just thinking up... are you psychic or something?

 

[The Heretic]

Excellent writeup Heretic!!! Lots of very useful info, and you helped a lot with questions I had about the Cummins diesel (was reading this: Cummins Diesel Motor - Diesel Power Magazine while you were posting).

You are welcome.

There are Cummins and diesel forums out there for "light trucks" (smaller than Class 4 - i.e., pickups), with lots of good info, just remember not to believe everything you read on the internet. As with guns, there are a lot of opinions about motor vehicles.

 

[jp1985]

Mine was a 82 k5 blazer diesel with a 6.2 in it. It was a civilian model (non military) i bought it from an old grandma who was the original owner. It was a rare one indeed not many diesel blazers. It was lifted 3 inches and had 35s it could go anywhere and i mean anywhere! I once was in a parking lot during a snow storm and drove over a steel wire that hold cement blocks together and it only made a small bump. My son called it the Beast!!! God i miss that truck i sold it last year after the wife kept nagging at me to sell it and get a more family friendly vehicle. The guy who i sold it to drives by sometimes and i can tell he rubs it in!

 

[coop44]

5 ton diesel

 

[simon99]

Just as an FYI

Most of the bad juju that the newer Cummins engines had were due to all the emission controls, etc. that Dodge put on. I'm not a mechanic personally, but I will say that my friend, who works for a very large automotive company as a factory certified mechanic instructed me when I got my new Cummins 1 Ton 4x4 to get rid off all that stuff, install a Banks PowerPack system, chip, etc...the whole 9 yards. I have a lot more power and get in the low 20's rolling on 37 inch tires with a 6 inch lift kit and another 1500lbs of additional steel, winches and auxiliary tank unloaded. Yes, I know it voids my warranty.....but in my eyes, money well spent for a bomber setup.

 

[kickstart my heart]

Everyone is going to have a different opinion. Personally I'd pick up something '73-87 Chevy/GMC pickup, K5 Blazer/full size Jimmy, or Suburban with a small block V-8. They made about a bazillion trucks in that era so parts are everywhere, pretty interchangeable (even between truck, K5, and Suburban), very simply/easy to work on and maintain, and they do pretty good off road. Think about all the small block chevy motors out there. You need something like an alternator, belt, hose, carb, etc., you stand a pretty good chance of making one work off some sedan or butt rock camaro you spot abandoned in a field. The negatives are they don't get very good fuel economy (12-14 mpg is what I'd expect), and the frames sometimes crack at the steering box (easy fix and you can buy the brace dirt cheap).

Diesel sounds great in theory, but there's some drawbacks. In a SHTF situation, if you're planning on being mobile and have to scavenge fuel from cars broke down, trapped on the side of the road, etc., there's a lot more gas powered vehicles on the road than diesel. Yes diesels can run off bio diesel, waste oil, vegetable oil, etc. Where the heck you going to get this vegetable oil/old fryer grease/bio diesel in a shtf situation?

Diesel trucks are also expensive. You find an old Dodge Cummins that's serviceable, you're still looking at $8k-14k (or more) to buy one. I bought my '87 K5 Blazer for $1400. Small block V-8, has 33" tires on it, 4x4, 31 gallon fuel tank, runs and drives. I had to buy a spare for it ($25), new bolts for the hubs (6 at .30 cent each at McLendon Hardware), fix the exhaust leak between the manifold and pipe ($22), replace the U Joints on the rear drive shaft ($30ish), and change fluids (maybe $60). So I have less than $2k into it and drive it 5-7 days a week. So for the $6k difference between my K5 and an old Cummings, I can dump money into lockers, a winch, better tires, lift if I want, more preps, etc. I see that as a distinct advantage.

Diesels definitely have the advantages of longevity, reliability, and fuel economy in a lot of cases. As far as longevity goes...in a shtf situation, you're not going to drive 400k miles. You're going to drive as far as your fuel will get you, then hopefully get some fuel to keep you going. You're only driving as little as necessary.

Military vehicles are beastly, but they have drawbacks too. Parts are hard to find (and expensive). Also the 2.5 and 5 ton 6x6 rigs get pretty bad fuel economy (guy I know says his gets 6 mpg but some guys get 8+).

Just my .02 cents. Not trying to wee in anyones cheerios or put down their choice. Too each his or her own.

 

[3MTA3]

Great input, Kickstart, lots of great points!

 

[mjbskwim]

Kick start does have good points but my cummins is still KING!!!

Really as far as finding fuel,most of the gas will be stolen earlier than the diesel and fewer people use diesel so it will be just as easy to find as gas.
Then the alternative fuels kick in for availability.

The big advantage of diesel is the longevity,mileage and torque. Lots of pushing power to get through rough areas. You can find some early model Cummins for the $5000 range. Ford diesels are cheaper and chevies are give a ways.And they have plenty of power compared to a big block gas

It all depends on what your SHTF or EOTWAWKI scenario is looking to be. Everyone has different views on what THEY will need.
I plan on pushing through and being able to recover useful goods.
Maybe to reenforce my bunker?
Maybe to move my bunker ?

Never know,I just see it as ,yes doing as little driving as possible,but having a vehicle that will burn most anything with decent mileage and will push most things out of it's way. or drag most anything anywhere

 

[AMProducts]

I plan on buying a truck this year, and I want something that will be useful in our third world future. I don't have any prejudice regarding make. What I need (for sure) is:
Please give me your input for make, model, year, engine, etc.

Ok, so let me go through your list piece by piece:

[*]reliability

There are a wide variety of vehicles that meet this requirement, most of them are newer, up through the 1970's most vehicles were designed to have a 2-5 year lifespan, so materials quality was not very high, also, there was very little done to handle corrosion problems which will rot out the body of the vehicle beyond this lifespan. In the latter part of the 70's vehicle designers really started to pay attention to this, because customers were not happy, as a consequence I would recommend a vehicle that is either of military origin (which would have the corrosion protection) or a vehicle that's after the 1970's.

Also, in the 1970's and 1980's due to clean air requirements there were a wide variety of technologies tried to take care of emissions problems. It wasn't until the late 1980's that these problems started to be solved by EFI, and better electronic engine management systems.

Even then, it's important to remember that even a year-2000 vehicle is now approaching 15 years old, years of neglected maintenance can take it's toll, thus it's likely that any vehicle you buy will require some level of over-haul in order to meet this requirement. My personal favorites are the jeep cherokees, they are fairly reliable (most of mine are 20+ year olds) however they do need regular maintenance to function properly.

[*]maintainability

Once again, this was largely an afterthought on many vehicles. Older GM's are fairly easy to work on, and even some of the late 90's fords. Any variety of front-drive vehicle that mounts the engine sideways is completely out.

Vehicles that use the OBD-II system (most vehicles 96>) are fairly easy to maintain as the computer will tell you at least where to start looking provided you have a code reader.

Much of this comes down to how good a mechanic you are. Each and every vehicle I've owned has had some quirks when it came to maintenance, ford trucks typically require a "layered" approach to get to certain parts and sub-systems. GM vehicles could be quite a mess depending on vintage, I remember having to change the waterpump once which required removing nearly everything on the front of the engine. Chrysler/Jeep/Eagle/dodge tend to be a mix of these two, invasive service may require removing only one or two other assemblies, depending on the vehicle, in some cases you can actually completely rebuild the engine in-place (no removal).

Toyota's and many of the import brands can be a bit tight to work on, and are usually performers, however these vehicles require strict adherence to the maintenance schedule. Don't miss a timing belt replacement at your peril.

[*]reasonable towing capability

Depends what you mean by "reasonable". I usually try to avoid anything over 3500lbs on the jeeps, but I've towed 10klbs with my 3/4 ton GMC, with another 1000lbs of stuff in the bed.

I would probably stick with something that has a Class III hitch (6000lb GTW, 600lb TW), this puts most mid-size (V6-V8) pickups, SUV's on your list.

[*]minimal electronics to replace

I know everyone says "get a pre-1970 dodge power-wagon" when it comes to this, however I think there are some sincere advantages to having electronic engine controls on a vehicle, better fuel economy, more power, and the list goes on. The most important aspect of any vehicle is knowing where problems will crop-up. If the electronics and engine management are a known problem on that vehicle, that information should be pretty easy to find from local mechanics and the internet.

[*]No electronics that could be used for tracking, or those that could be disabled

So this is difficult, because nearly all internal combustion engines have some very noisy electronics on them, the electronic fuel pumps, spark plugs, all of these things make anyone with a frequency counter take notice.

 

[The Heretic]

Everyone is going to have a different opinion. Personally I'd pick up something '73-87 Chevy/GMC pickup, K5 Blazer/full size Jimmy, or Suburban with a small block V-8. They made about a bazillion trucks in that era so parts are everywhere, pretty interchangeable (even between truck, K5, and Suburban), very simply/easy to work on and maintain, and they do pretty good off road. Think about all the small block chevy motors out there. You need something like an alternator, belt, hose, carb, etc., you stand a pretty good chance of making one work off some sedan or butt rock camaro you spot abandoned in a field. The negatives are they don't get very good fuel economy (12-14 mpg is what I'd expect), and the frames sometimes crack at the steering box (easy fix and you can buy the brace dirt cheap).

Diesel sounds great in theory, but there's some drawbacks. In a SHTF situation, if you're planning on being mobile and have to scavenge fuel from cars broke down, trapped on the side of the road, etc., there's a lot more gas powered vehicles on the road than diesel. Yes diesels can run off bio diesel, waste oil, vegetable oil, etc. Where the heck you going to get this vegetable oil/old fryer grease/bio diesel in a shtf situation?

Diesel trucks are also expensive. You find an old Dodge Cummins that's serviceable, you're still looking at $8k-14k (or more) to buy one. I bought my '87 K5 Blazer for $1400. Small block V-8, has 33" tires on it, 4x4, 31 gallon fuel tank, runs and drives. I had to buy a spare for it ($25), new bolts for the hubs (6 at .30 cent each at McLendon Hardware), fix the exhaust leak between the manifold and pipe ($22), replace the U Joints on the rear drive shaft ($30ish), and change fluids (maybe $60). So I have less than $2k into it and drive it 5-7 days a week. So for the $6k difference between my K5 and an old Cummings, I can dump money into lockers, a winch, better tires, lift if I want, more preps, etc. I see that as a distinct advantage.

Diesels definitely have the advantages of longevity, reliability, and fuel economy in a lot of cases. As far as longevity goes...in a shtf situation, you're not going to drive 400k miles. You're going to drive as far as your fuel will get you, then hopefully get some fuel to keep you going. You're only driving as little as necessary.

Military vehicles are beastly, but they have drawbacks too. Parts are hard to find (and expensive). Also the 2.5 and 5 ton 6x6 rigs get pretty bad fuel economy (guy I know says his gets 6 mpg but some guys get 8+).

Just my .02 cents. Not trying to wee in anyones cheerios or put down their choice. Too each his or her own.

All valid observations - you make your choices and pay your money. There are advantages and disadvantages to everything.

You mentioned something I forgot to comment on: WVO/etc. as fuel for diesel.

IMO, avoid it, or at least really really know what you are getting into. Don't get a vehicle with this already on it as most of the rigs out there with this are cobbled together. Even the best rigs have a problem when it gets cold in the winter - some get around this by running diesel until a heater in the WVO tank warms the WVO enough to use, some use other means.

It isn't that you can't use WVO/et. al. for alternate fuel, it is that most people who do run into problems because they don't fully understand the issues.

If by now you haven't guessed, I used to be a diesel mech before I got into high tech. I mostly worked on marine and Ag and industrial diesels.

As for fuel availability if SHTF. I live where I would bug out to - on 20 forested acres on a mountain. I drive a nice German coupe to/from work, and my trucks sit in my shop for when I need a truck to haul something or when it snows (last time I drove my Dodge off the property was when it snowed in 2012 just before Xmas). The coupe is more economical and comfortable than either truck so it is my daily driver.

I doubt that a SHTF scenario will ever happen such that I would exhaust the fuel capacity of any of my vehicles to get home from my workplace 30 miles away, or to bug out further to the coastal mountains if a zombie apocalypse happens. But if it does, I am not going to be doing a daily commute, so the 600 mile range of my Dodge works for me for most scenarios, and that is just the stock tank - when I finish converting it to an RV for retirement, it should have a range of about 2000 miles.

I can store thousands of gallons of fuel here at my place, but for now I just have a couple of 55 gallon barrels with a hand pump.

I am not too worried about fuel one way or the other. I believe it is generally enough to keep my tanks topped off.

But if I have to scavenge or barter for fuel, where I live there are plenty of diesels - tractors mostly, and most of the farmers that surround me have hundreds to thousands of gallons of off-road diesel, and some still heat their houses with it.

I would try to avoid doing that if at all possible though - I believe it is more important that they have diesel for their tractor so they can grow and harvest food (although I have noticed that in the last 2 to 3 decades that more and more farmland is growing non-food items like landscaping plants and Xmas trees, etc.).

YMMV - literally.

 

[kickstart my heart]

I think the "real answer" is there's no perfect vehicle. Much like there's no way of predicting or planning for everything.

Something I would consider....a serious SHTF situation is very very unlikely. No matter how much planning or money you devote, you'll never have every situation covered. Any mechanical device can break down or fail. I would invest your money in either something reasonably cheap/affordable, or that will double as your daily driver or hunting/winter driver. I would personally get something practical unless you have a lot of disposable income. It would be a shame to dump lots of money into a dedicated SHTF vehicle that will never have a purpose.

I would also not pick something too flashy or that attracts a lot of attention. In a panicky SHTF situation, you just want to blend in with every other guy on the road. Driving down the road in a large military rig, something that looks really expensive, or something that looks like it came out of the movie Road Warrior, is going to have a lot of eyes on you and people thinking about liberating you of your ride.

 

[AMProducts]

I think the "real answer" is there's no perfect vehicle. Much like there's no way of predicting or planning for everything.

Something I would consider....a serious SHTF situation is very very unlikely. No matter how much planning or money you devote, you'll never have every situation covered. Any mechanical device can break down or fail. I would invest your money in either something reasonably cheap/affordable, or that will double as your daily driver or hunting/winter driver. I would personally get something practical unless you have a lot of disposable income. It would be a shame to dump lots of money into a dedicated SHTF vehicle that will never have a purpose.

I would also not pick something too flashy or that attracts a lot of attention. In a panicky SHTF situation, you just want to blend in with every other guy on the road. Driving down the road in a large military rig, something that looks really expensive, or something that looks like it came out of the movie Road Warrior, is going to have a lot of eyes on you and people thinking about liberating you of your ride.

Bingo, this is why I drive around in old jeeps, most people ignore a jeep all covered in antennas and off-road gear, because that's what old jeeps do. Is it perfect? oh god no, but I like it, I paid $1200 for one, $800 for the next, and $1300 for the one after that. Cheap! No problems cutting on them, welding etc.

 

[Spielmannsfluch]

I still like the m1009 cucv. Nothing beats an old school 80's diesel when it comes to fueling it up. I even have a baby seat in mine.....

Only problem I've found is it weighs three tons...you need 33" or bigger tires on it to get through soft wet earth.

 

[Inspector]

That Deuce is sweet but not practical. I thought about getting one just for fun until I read up on maintenance. As I recall the wheels have to be removed every thousand miles or so for maintenance. Fuel economy sucks.

I'd look at a CJ5 probably. A four cylinder model. The problem will be finding gasoline. Potentially no power to the gas stations. Need a way to pump the gas from the tanks. How long will the gas be good down there before it turns to varnish?

So you think diesel is better? Run it on vegetable oil? Who will be using vegetable oil? Who will be producing it? I bet that if things really go south, you won't find alternative oils anywhere after the first few weeks. You could cook down animal fat I suppose... Might smell kinda funny.

In the end it all points towards one thing.

Bicycle power.

 

[Spielmannsfluch]

Cucv will run on old varnish gas and waste oil blend. Also, power steering fluid, tranny fluid, brake fluid, kerosene....and will get 15-20 miles a gallon. Just keep extra fuel filters around.

 

[CounterOfBeans]

My apologies in advance. Someone may have already mentioned these points, but I don't have time to read through all the posts of this thread up to now.

But like Spielmannsfluch, I'd have to plug the Cucv. The m1008 is the pick up version and the m1009 is the Blazer version. They're 4x4 and I believe they are 1 1/4 ton load capacity and built to be tough in general. Also, think parts, parts, parts. Statistically, regarding production proliferation, GM and Ford are going to be the easiest vehicles to happen upon if you need parts. Maintenance wise, the easier it is to fix, the less vulnerable you are.

On the diesel engine's ability to "run on old varnish gas and waste oil blend. Also, power steering fluid, tranny fluid, brake fluid, kerosene....and will get 15-20 miles a gallon", that would be VERY nice for sure, but I also understand they're harder to work on or that there are fewer people who know how to work on them. If that's the case for real, if it breaks down, it doesn't matter how many different kinds of fuel you have.

That said, I went to the automotive technologies education department at Clark Community College and sought out a professor to get some insights. Specifically, in shopping for my truck, I wanted absolutely no computer systems or electronic sensors that could go bad and complicate my novice attempts of fixing my own rig. The professor said that the last year pickups were bare bones straight forward was 1972. In '73, emission controls started showing up.

I've also heard (don't know for sure) that the 6.2L diesels that come in Cucv's are a little under-powered. Soooo, if I had my druthers, I'd find a 1 1/4 ton Cucv and put in a fresh, no-frills, crate 350 and quadrajet carburetor and learn how to tune it yourself for best performance. The camo paint on the Cucv's is great too, but if you're concerned about standing out in camo, spray paint it a flat medium grey. Grey is an excellent "blend in" color, both physically and politically.

Add a winch to the front and a combination ball/pintle hitch to the back (pick up one of each of the different sizes of hitch balls) so you can tow whatever trailer you might have to. If you install a vehicle mounted ham radio set, you could likely also solve a lot of gas wasting problems in SHTF by being able to find out what routes not to take. Buy one or two spare sets of hoses, belts, plugs, plug wires, fluids and other consumables. It would probably be a good idea to have a set of basic tools that is dedicated for that vehicle (i.e. socket set, wrench set, screw drivers, vice grips, etc.). Maybe take advantage of the relatively cheap gas prices right now and stock up with 55 gal drums and use Stabil to preserve it.

If you do all this, you would likely spend a lot less than buying a new truck and be less dependent on computers and sensors that can leave you in a lurch, with no way to diagnose your engine's problem for sure. The only drawback I see to the Cucv format, is that I don't think I've ever seen one that is an extra cab or crew cab. That extra space behind the seat is really handy.

 

[Spielmannsfluch]

Underpowered, yes, but when it comes down to it....How much do you need?

Anything can break down....I just like the m1009 because it has the fewest things to break....and I can still fit a child seat in the back.

 

[richdav]

I didn't buy this as a prep rig but it certainly would work for me. At least until I can get a Hilux in the US.

I have a 2000 F250 4x4 7.3 diesel crewcab that is my daily driver. About six years ago I installed a dual tank system that allows me to run waist veggie oil. It could also run all the fluids Spielmannsfluch mentioned ( I have only run wvo but know guys that run there engine oil after they change it) . It has been easy to work on, parts are everywhere, very reliable, great gas mileage for the size. I can fix just about any electric so that was not a concern.

 

[Spielmannsfluch]

The one drawback of the m1009 is the weight. At there tons, you need the wider tires. I stayed with mud traction 31-11.5 and I've gotten stuck in two wheel drive in soft earth with wet leaves covering in wet weather. I wish I would have went with 33-12.5 at least. Next time.

I filter to two microns and add waste oil to the diesel. It seems to run a little smoother with the mix. Last summer I found an old 1.5 gallon tank of 2 year old stabil'd gas and mixed it with used motor oil....thing ran fine.

The m1009 has some extra heavy duty features like the giant cow catcher on the front, and skid plates for the transfer case, oil pan and gas tank. Adds to the weight, but they're a nice touch.