What to do after a defensive shooting...

[44mag2ndamend]

SIC SEMPER EVELLO MORTEM TYRANNIS!

 

[Riot]

3. Can I search you car...

I've been taught to ask "Do you mind if I search your car/bag/house?" Any answer they give I'll rephrase to "so it's okay to search, there's not anything in here going to jump out at me is there?" If they're adament that they don't won't to be searched, I'll ask "you don't have anything to hide, do you?"

Most people don't want to say no to you, and the more polite/friendly you are the more they'll put their guard down. Any type of official contact with LEO is always tense, so I tried to put people at ease with a little jest here and there to keep people thinking of other things besides grabbing the weapon in the dashboard to shoot me in the face.

Even now when I search inmates I'll talk with them, ask them about the Seahawks or what was for dinner- it gives me an idea about their mood and gets them thinking about other things other than punching me in the face when I find they have a shank in their waistband...

....or do you have anything illegal in the car

I would never flat out say the word "illegal". Most people go on the defensive, even if they're not doing anything wrong.

Then do not give consent and that you wish to leave now.

I would just say "I'm kind'a late, can I go now?" or "I don't mean to be rude, but I've got a schedule to keep." Being stand-offish with the police isn't going to win you any pointers. If you just gave a glared stare into the windshield and said "I do not consent to any searches, am I free to leave?" I would probably keep you there as long as humanly possible and lecture you/write you on every little thing you had going on.

Didn't sign your registration? Changed lanes within a 100' of an intersection?

4. Stay in your car, if they ask if you mind stepping out that is not an order, I found that 99% of people we saw pull over would leave the door open, they are counting you will do the same, if the door is open they can peak more closely at what is in the car even without asking. If you get out close the door.

See how you said "do you mind stepping out of the car?" Stepping out is a consent...leaving the door open and everything in the immediate area (minus locked gloved boxes or bags) is subjective to the "in plain sight" clause. If you do step out, lock the door and close it behind you.

Think like a cop and you can escape some simple tricks.

Respect is a big issue...you show kindness and respect, I would show you the same. You make the stop painful for me? I'd make it painful for you.

 

[44mag2ndamend]

I would just say "I'm kind'a late, can I go now?" or "I don't mean to be rude, but I've got a schedule to keep." Being stand-offish with the police isn't going to win you any pointers. If you just gave a glared stare into the windshield and said "I do not consent to any searches, am I free to leave?" I would probably keep you there as long as humanly possible and lecture you/write you on every little thing you had going on.

Sounds like the above, statements or scenario is being perceived as a personal affront. What better way to show a bias? No? Believe what you will.

I am sure being an LEO is difficult to say the least, at one point locally you needed a 4 year degree, from almost any discipline, in order to even be considered for the application process as a Portland Police Officer. Seems to me a person whom knows her or his rights would be thought of with more respect.

Respect is a big issue...you show kindness and respect, I would show you the same. You make the stop painful for me? I'd make it painful for you.

 

[wichaka]

It appears I got folks blood pressure up.

I was answering the original OP of the thread. If you don't like it, its ok by me.


mjbskwim, my feelings are not hurt, been thru way too much to have something like this get to me. Like anything in life, check the facts.

you and I have never met,so I will not take you word as the best advise.

But you’ll take advice from someone on a video that you haven’t met? Fair enough.

“Maybe you are still LEO and don't want us to use this advise so it won't hamper your job?”

This might be earth shattering to some, but one couldn’t know how little I care if one talks at a scene or not. You folks must be thinking of those types that feel their job is to bully the public. The scene itself talks plenty of what happened.


Most folks know that I’m not an Ayoob fan, and I don’t follow him…but it appears we agree on one thing anyway;

Massad Ayoob (Aftermath Shooting) - YouTube

The New Miranda Rule

Under the new case, the police do not have to stop questioning you after reading you your Miranda rights. In the past if they did do so they would have to prove that any statements from you were freely and voluntarily given. Under the new rule the burden is reversed. It is now up to you to prove that you really meant to assert your Miranda rights. Thus if you say "lawyer" the police can keep questioning you and if you volunteer anything it is admissible against you. As usual, the rule for defense attorneys is Keep Your Mouth Shut.

It allot more dangerous as most people do not realize the rules changed three years ago.

Please qualify your statement by giving us the case law please.

Cops are even taught in the academy to NOT to give statements after a use of force to anyone until they have consulted with legal council.

It appears it may be an assumption on your part. I'll ask for a qualifier on that statement. Where did you get that from? Any particular academy or state?

 

[BAMCIS]

It appears I got folks blood pressure up.

Cops are even taught in the academy to NOT to give statements after a use of force to anyone until they have consulted with legal council.

It appears it may be an assumption on your part. I'll ask for a qualifier on that statement. Where did you get that from? Any particular academy or state?

Didn't get my blood pressure up either.

Salted uses bing, I use google. But in any case a very short google search brought up the agreement between the state of Oregon and the trooper's union. For your convenience here is is: http://www.oregon.gov/DAS/CHRO/docs/lr/11_13_ospoa_final.pdf Using a bit of common sense, I imagine bargaining agreements in other law enforcement jurisdictions are similar.

I skimmed through it a found a section directly on point.

9.6 Use of Force Situations.
Employees involved in the use of force shall be advised of their rights to and allowed to consult with an Association representative or attorney prior to being required to give an oral or written statement about the use of force. Such right to consult with a representative or with counsel shall not unduly delay the giving of the statement.

Using a bit more common sense, I suspect new cops get training and/or instruction on their union's contract with management in their academy training. But again that's just an educated guess.

I do not think cops are "out to bully the public". But they have rules and laws to follow just like everyone else. Further, an experienced investigator will understand and will not take it personally when someone invokes their constitutional rights. Especially the 4th and 5th amendments. Indeed, the investigator, especially if seasoned, will probably silently applaud.

 

[wichaka]

You assert that the way Miranda is applied has significantly changed...not as much as you lead folks here to believe.

In Berghuis v. Thompkins, 560 U.S, the subject in question did not say anything after their rights were read...basically did not answer and remained silent, thus the Police went into questioning/Interrogation mode.

The courts held, Thompkins did not invoke his right to remain silent and was not coerced into making statements during the interrogation, and that it was not unreasonable.

BERGHUIS, WARDEN v. THOMPKINS

certiorari to the united states court of appeals for the sixth circuit

No. 08–1470. Argued March 1, 2010—Decided June 1, 2010

After advising respondent Thompkins of his rights, in full compliance with Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U. S. 436, Detective Helgert and another Michigan officer interrogated him about a shooting in which one victim died. At no point did Thompkins say that he wanted to remain silent, that he did not want to talk with the police, or that he wanted an attorney. He was largely silent during the 3-hour interrogation, but near the end, he answered “yes” when asked if he prayed to God to forgive him for the shooting. He moved to suppress his statements, claiming that he had invoked his Fifth Amendment right to remain silent, that he had not waived that right, and that his inculpatory statements were involuntary.


From the courts I've been involved in, both Oregon and Washington...if the subject in question asserts their right to remain silent, questioning must stop. Been that way even since I've been in the boiling pot. If the Officer(s) continue, and for some reason the subject starts to make statements, it can be supressed.

Silence to the questions of understanding Miranda is a non assertion of rights. Hopefully the Officer(s) involved will take in account possible medical problems...but as we see today...sadly ain't always the case.

As I refer to my initial post...help the investigation as Ayoob points out, but after that don't say anything more.
It appears if Ayoob says it, its ok...but if a LE person states it, they are trying to set a trap. But then again, Ayoob was a LE guy too at one time.

Now is the time to find an attorney that is well versed in use of force issues, not after the fact.

 

[Riot]

It appears I got folks blood pressure up.

There's a reason why I have mjbskwim on ignore...

 

[wichaka]

I have been on both sides of the coin in such situations, and have also been treated poorly.

It really pains me to keep reading and seeing about the things that LE people do these days...common sense has left the building!

 

[Riot]

I have been on both sides of the coin in such situations, and have also been treated poorly.

It really pains me to keep reading and seeing about the things that LE people do these days...common sense has left the building!

Agreed...but just like here in DOC I don't think that more officers are doing it than ever before, I just think that with more audio cameras out and about- more are getting caught than ever before.

 

[wichaka]

Agreed...but just like here in DOC I don't think that more officers are doing it than ever before, I just think that with more audio cameras out and about- more are getting caught than ever before.

...and hopefully they will take notice and get their crap together! Nah...that's asking too much!

 

[oknow]

...and hopefully they will take notice and get their crap together! Nah...that's asking too much!

I think you're right they will just outlaw civilians from videotaping the cops.

 

[Irishjester]

Lots of good advice on this thread. I was told a lot of similar things that have already been stated by others. I just want to make sure what I have been told by an attorney on a few other things is correct, so please feel free to provide advice. This is what I was told:

The first thing to say to the police is "I am in shock". I was told that this can help when in court, because by stating your are in shock may help your lawyer with anything the police stated you said at the scene. Also a person in shock should be seen by a medical professional. True or not true?

Next I was told if I felt that I needed to say something, to make a statement containing WILL, WAY, and FEAR OF LIFE. Example: I felt he was willing to kill me, I felt I could not safely get away, and I was in fear for my life. Otherwise just invoke your rights and ask for a lawyer.

Then I was told to never say that you shot the suspect. This identifies that you specifically identified your target and wanted to kill the suspect. Instead I was told to say you shot in the suspects general direction. This would help play into the fear of life when in court, because you were so scared you just shot your gun, not trying to hurt or kill, just trying to protect yourself, even if your grouping was the size of a quarter!

I have been practicing this for quite some time and just wanted to know if this is good or are there some changes I should make.

Thanks so much,
Irish

 

[semperfi68to70]

1. Don't Talk
2. Call a Lawyer .
3. Refer to one and two with any other issues.

I was a LEO for eight years during my fire service career (arson unit in Southern California). I trained in the John Reid Method of interrogation, made 135 felony arrests, never had a case rejected by the L.A. District Attorney and only lost four cases out of the 135 although not all of them went to trial.

The advice above is the best advice anyone can give you. The nice police officer is not your friend. I have spent a ton of time around cops because I was one of them and believe me when I tell you that they see everyone but cops as their enemy. Most of them are nice guys if you get to know them under other circumstances, but their job tends to make them cynical and we are taught to assume everyone is lying to us. Most of the time that is a fair assumption. The only thing I can add to the advice above is to throw your weapon away from you as soon as the police arrive, prone yourself out and obey their directions as if it were the word of God. Do this and you have a much better chance of surviving the arrest and if you dummy up you will not have to explain "what you really meant" later.

Most LEOs won't like what I said and believe it or not, I really like cops. This is just my opinion, but it wasn't formed from one arrest or story of an arrest. Most of the people I arrested "talked" themselves into prison. We certainly would have successfully prosecuted many of them based just on physical evidence and witnesses, but many of them helped a lot.

 

[wichaka]

The first thing to say to the police is "I am in shock". I was told that this can help when in court, because by stating your are in shock may help your lawyer with anything the police stated you said at the scene. Also a person in shock should be seen by a medical professional. True or not true?

I have to say I've not heard that one before, but then I don't keep up on attorney lingo. I guess it wouldn't hurt. But there's enough AA info. out there, that being in shock is a common thing to have happen to the shooter.

Next I was told if I felt that I needed to say something, to make a statement containing WILL, WAY, and FEAR OF LIFE. Example: I felt he was willing to kill me, I felt I could not safely get away, and I was in fear for my life. Otherwise just invoke your rights and ask for a lawyer.

Yep, that's the basis for using deadly force to begin with. So the "fearing for the life" statement, isn't going to hurt. If you weren't fearing for your life, there may be a problem.

Then I was told to never say that you shot the suspect. This identifies that you specifically identified your target and wanted to kill the suspect. Instead I was told to say you shot in the suspects general direction. This would help play into the fear of life when in court, because you were so scared you just shot your gun, not trying to hurt or kill, just trying to protect yourself, even if your grouping was the size of a quarter!

Refer to my original post. After one helps direct the investigators to the important aspects of the incident, say no more until you consult with an attorney. So, I disagree with stating anything you just mentioned above. [/QUOTE]

 

[wichaka]

The only thing I can add to the advice above is to throw your weapon away from you as soon as the police arrive, prone yourself out and obey their directions as if it were the word of God. Do this and you have a much better chance of surviving the arrest and if you dummy up you will not have to explain "what you really meant" later.

Not sure what you mean by "throw your weapon away from you", and hopefully you didn't mean that literally.

The last thing I would do is take my 1,000+ dollar gun and throw it. It really makes no sense. Put the gun down safely, and stay quite a few steps away from it. Keep your hands where they can be seen and don't make any sudden unexpected moves...and life will go on.

You may be placed in handcuffs and detained until they are assured that the scene is clear and safe...don't take it personal.

After an event like this, it is not the time to jack your jaws...although you may feel the need to. Many don't even have the strength at that time to even help out the investigators. Weak in the knees and the stomach are just a couple of the things you may feel.
I've seen some totally fall apart, and others go thru it ok...but noticeably shaken, and for a good reason. And don't be ashamed if you pee your pants...it happens.

 

[wichaka]

9.6 Use of Force Situations.
Employees involved in the use of force shall be advised of their rights to and allowed to consult with an Association representative or attorney prior to being required to give an oral or written statement about the use of force. Such right to consult with a representative or with counsel shall not unduly delay the giving of the statement.

Using a bit of common sense, I imagine bargaining agreements in other law enforcement jurisdictions are similar.

Generally three days are given to consult with the union, attorney etc., before giving a statement. However, there are times of exigent circumstance where an Officer may be compelled to give a statement over and above what the contract states. In which the Officer would invoke "Garrity", so the statement could not be used criminally, but for internal use only.

Being a part of the homicide investigators of WA., the advice I gave in my first post is working its way into policies and procedures across the state. We are trying to instill the same procedures with citizen involved shootings...but ya know how them old school admins. are. UGH!

Humans are worse than horses, when it comes to leading them to water. At least you can get the horse to the water...with humans...good luck even getting them to take a step.

 

[semperfi68to70]

Not sure what you mean by "throw your weapon away from you", and hopefully you didn't mean that literally.

The last thing I would do is take my 1,000+ dollar gun and throw it. It really makes no sense. Put the gun down safely, and stay quite a few steps away from it. Keep your hands where they can be seen and don't make any sudden unexpected moves...and life will go on.

You may be placed in handcuffs and detained until they are assured that the scene is clear and safe...don't take it personal.

After an event like this, it is not the time to jack your jaws...although you may feel the need to. Many don't even have the strength at that time to even help out the investigators. Weak in the knees and the stomach are just a couple of the things you may feel.
I've seen some totally fall apart, and others go thru it ok...but noticeably shaken, and for a good reason. And don't be ashamed if you pee your pants...it happens.

No, I meant it literally. If a cop is pointing a weapon at me and tells me to throw my weapon to the ground I am going to do it. I don't care if it is worth $10,000, it isn't worth my life. If you have the time to make the weapon safe and put it on the ground before you have a few POs pointing their Sigs/Glocks/M&Ps at you fine, but once you have reached the point of having orders shouting at you at gunpoint; do what they say. I never had to shoot anyone as a LEO, but I was ready to do so if I needed to more than a few times. That is not the time to worry about scratching your firearm.

 

[wichaka]

Once you hear the sirens, put the gun away...that way you won't have to throw it.