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Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by gonefishinagain, Nov 1, 2013.
The most important article you will read: What to do after a defensive shooting | The Daily Caller
How many members have not actually thought about this aspect of a self defense requirement? I know some of what this article entails is a no brainer but much is left out of our thoughts. Anyone know any good gun related attorneys in Olympia? Best to be prepared.
Contrary to the idiotic youtube videos and other garbage floating around the net, I would suggest one speaks to someone who has actually been there, and had that done to them. UGH!
It is actually beneficial to your cause if you do talk to investigators, but only in a very narrow scope. True, do not discuss what happened, but do help out yourself by helping the investigation.
Tell the investigators the following;
1 - Who was involved, and where they can be found;
2 - The area of where the incident occurred. If it started in one place and ended in another, give the investigators the path taken;
3 - Evidence/weapons and where they can be found;
4 - Witnesses. and where they can be found.
Leave it there, and contact your chosen attorney.
Giving the above does not incriminate you in anyway.
As for attorneys. Find one that is well versed in use of force issues for your state. For the cost of a case of ammo or so, the time spent getting the info. you need will payoff much down the road.
Well idiotic or not,I'll take the advise of those that were actually asked to speak on the topic by someone.
After I talk to an attorney.
Doesn't seem any more idiotic than taking advise from someone on a gun forum who claims to be a LEO.
And why take advise from a somewhat informed LEO anyway?
Like the ex sheriff said in the video,cops are trained to put people together to get confessions and ANYTHING YOU SAY,WILL MOST DEFINITELY,BE USED AGAINST YOU.
I'll listen to the idiotic video
What wichaka said follows what I was told in both in-home and outside the home defense training (NRA) taught by law enforcement. Its also ok to "not remember, everything happened so fast"...short term memory loss is not uncommon after an incident. Do cooperate with the basic info and don't forget that you feared for your life!
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One needs to check my advice and apply it to see how relevant it is...no harm no foul there. Look back on all my posts on the matter, and see the consistency. Have sat down with many attorney on the subject. I unlike others, do not spout out anything that will harm any of you in any way. Check the facts of the matter, and see what you come up with.
But nope, don't take any advice from a "somewhat" informed LEO...not that some of us "somewhat" informed LEO's have been on both sides of the coin and have been asked to speak and teach on such matters.
But hey, we're nasty evil people...we start fires to feel joy, and ate our twins in the womb.
Step 1, Invoke your Miranda Rights
Step 2, Call an Attorney
Step 3, Call the Local Funeral Home
Step 4, Call all your 2nd Amendment friends and family
Step 5, Call 911
In that order.
Don't go getting you feeling hurt (yes I meant feeling) you and I have never met,so I will not take you word as the best advise. Same as you shouldn't care what I happen to say about you. Especially since I haven't directed anything towards you personally.
maybe you are better informed about the subject,maybe you think it best for someone to talk. But it really makes sense to me to shut up after what the LEO in the video used as examples of how HE would put people together to get confessions.
Maybe you are still LEO and don't want us to use this advise so it won't hamper your job?
I can't say since I've never met you,that I know of
Police are trained to get you to talk. The more justifications you share, the more opportunities you give them to work on you. That's why most people should just shut up. Most good cops can turn a couple of sentences from you on the scene into a ten minute conversation.
If you have anything to say beyond "I was in fear for my life, the perp is over there, the witnesses are over here and my gun is over yonder", save it for your attorney.
just to clarify a few things that members have brought up, some say invoke your Miranda rights. Aren't those the rights that the cops read you after they cuff & stuff you in the cruiser? And what we should tell them is that ywe want to plead the fifth amendment and talk to your lawyer. Is that the way it should be?
Thank so much for the added info SW. I am gonna practice what I need to say so I'm prepared if I need it.
I was scared and fearing for my life.
I was shakin' like a leaf on a tree.
'Cause he was lean, mean,
Big and bad, Lord,
Pointin' that gun at me.
Going to hop on this...
Before you take Wicha's advice as gospel, it should be noted that not all police officers are your friend so it would behoove you to seek an attorney before saying anything to the police past "I shot him, I was in fear of my life, I want to talk with a lawyer before I say anything else."
Repeat as necessary.
To this day, I use a common tactic of trying to get as much information out of people while the adrenaline is still kicking. I'll even tell them about similar situations I've been in to relate.
I even take head nods as admittance & log everything down.
Knowing this, you need to shut up & realize no matter how friendly an officer is, they're not your friend. They are an objective investigator. You need to wait until that adrenaline is dumped out so you can think about even how you're going to answer a question.
Cops will also quote you. You want to know what doesn't translate well on paper? Intent. A quote of "I shot that black guy" can be spun so far against you you'll have to change names & hire security.
Be smart, take the safe road & shut your mouth!
*edited to add*
Google "Excited Utterance", you'll be shocked as to what can be held against you before your even Mirandized
I have never seen anyone tell me talking with a LEO saved them trouble, I know many law abiding people however that were screwed the minute they were honest with police. I think well advised to state Name, Rank and Serial number only what by law you must do , then then shut up.
Quoted by SW, yeah he is right, and I have been there. Cops will try and twist everything that is said into an admittance of guilt, or just get information, whether how false it is, and just charge someone. That is their job.
GET A LAWYER AND SHUT UP. I won in court.
bubblegum Multnomah county.
I'm surprised this thread has 20 plus posts on it. Nothing much to add after mjbskwim posted the link to this video. It pretty much sums everything one needs to know after being in any situation potentially involving any questioning by the government.
Cops are even taught in the academy to NOT to give statements after a use of force to anyone until they have consulted with legal council.
Massad Ayoob on Lethal Force Aftermath pod cast. Download or stream. It is over an hour, but you can skip the first seven minutes of ads.
Massad Ayoob on Lethal Force Aftermath | The Survival Podcast
After a shooting checklist:
1. Establish the active dynamic of what happened. Why you shot.
2. Sign the complaint. Ask for the attacker be arrested.
3. Point out any evidence. If anything was moved by emergency responders.
4. Point out witnesses.
5. Stop answering questions at this point without council.
Assume you are being recorded.
Excellent video mjbskwin.
I have taught this to my children but this video communicates it very effectively.
Many years ago, I was wrongly convicted of a misdemeanor (I was innocent) my a police officer who used a tricky double question. He asked me "That statement is true, not like that other thing?"
When I asserted that my statement was true, it took it as an affirmative that the other statement was a lie. I was convicted on that basis.
Ahh Salted. You have brought back some old memories of my own.
I know a lot of cops play the "Do you know why I stopped you?" game to make their court case easier. I will never fault them for that. Perhaps this is they way were trained, or department policy. But personally I never asked anyone if they knew why I stopped them. I thought it sounded unprofessional and in my opinion, potentially unsafe. I always informed the driver why I stopped them on my initial contact. Then I gave them an out, such as, "Is your speedometer working properly?" Or "Do you have any legal justification for........." (fill in the blank, speeding, running a stop sign or light etc.). I really didn't give a rip what the answer was. Securing a conviction for a simple traffic infraction just wasn't that high on my priority list because the burden in court is so low, and if a conviction is not secured then who cares? I'll get them next time. Job security.
I mentioned potentially unsafe because the occupants may have just committed a far more serious crime such as armed robbery, murder etc., and to ask the driver if he knows the reason for the stop may make them think you have stopped them for the armed robbery or murder or whatever. By telling them the reason for the stop it on the initial contact puts a real bad guy at ease thinking he'll be on his way shortly with only a ticket. Which in his way of thinking is far better than a shootout with a cop.
BTW: This very thing happened to me years ago. Long story, but I received a call from the FBI who were investigating why after committing an armed robbery, the driver I stopped didn't have a shootout with me, but did a few days later in another state with two cops. I told them it was probably because I told the driver the reason for the stop on the initial contact.
Again exactly true.
If they tell you you are not free to go and they are calling the dog then politely ask that it be noted you asked to leave and this is over your objection. When they say they will note it, say nothing more. Assume you are being recorded. This also goes if they are being nice and tell you they will leave the doors open to their car and ask if you want to have a seat.
And take the key(s) and lock the doors. This implies that you have an expectation of privacy and no consent has been given for a search. But keep politely asking if you are free to go.
Hope this isn't to far off topic, but the best, easiest policy is to say as little as possible to the government and especially the police.