What sucks the most about job searching?

[The Heretic]

Wait until you get older. Age discrimination is a real thing.
The ideal situation is one where someone asks for your resume.

So is gender discrimination.

The spelling of my first name is such that people mistake it for female (usually a slightly different spelling for males - at least in the USA). So I have gotten a few employers interested in me because they saw a lot of experience, and wanted to add a female to the team for diversity/etc.

That's great - I am all for diversity, and my profession is mostly male, which sucks. But it sucks even more when it is obvious that they were interested in me because they thought (wrongly) that I was female, and then lose interest when they find out I am not the gender they expected. Not common, but it has happened.

I am sure the age discrimination has happened too - but it hasn't been as obvious.

 

[Tarawa86]

That is another pet peeve of mine. Such certs mean nothing to most dev teams. Just means someone took an online course. What we look for is real project experience.

Well, certs are *mostly* for IT staff and not developers; and like most things in life your return is based on the effort you put in. If someone rushes through an online course and then use online test 'brain dumps' to pass of course they aren't going have the skills the cert was trying to impart. If you take the cert seriously, actually study and practice the material, then you are going to be far ahead of someone with *comparable* experience. I've been in IT for many years and always learn new and useful things from certification material.

 

[The Heretic]

For vets, check into Hire Our Heroes.

When I first got out, I thought my experience as a mech (mostly diesel, but a lot of other experience too) in the military would help. Previously I couldn't break into being a mech because I lacked the job experience even though I had the knowledge and aptitude, so I thought, formal military training, then almost 4 years as a mech? Nope. Employers not interested, didn't care. Even after going to voc school they didn't care.

I dropped that - got my EE degree. Got out just as the tech industry hit a slump. Had to compete with hundreds of engineers (while I was an inexperienced tech) from Tektronix who had just laid off a bunch of people. Had interviews in Seattle a few times - nothing in the Portland area. Gave up and went to Calif. and had more interest in me there in one week than in 6 months in the PNW. Got a phone call from a tech corp in Seattle who hired me over the phone. From there, it was mostly up to where I am now.

Weird how it works sometimes, but I am disillusioned as to what a stint in the military would do for most anybody in the civilian job market. I think if a person spent that same time in the civilian market they would be better off job wise.

Sorry to be a downer, but it is what it is, and this is a thread about what sucks.

 

[The Heretic]

Well, certs are *mostly* for IT staff and not developers; and like most things in life your return is based on the effort you put in. If someone rushes through an online course and then use online test 'brain dumps' to pass of course they aren't going have the skills the cert was trying to impart. If you take the cert seriously, actually study and practice the material, then you are going to be far ahead of someone with *comparable* experience. I've been in IT for many years and always learn new and useful things from certification material.

In any domain, I've always had better luck doing than reading/testing - not that I didn't learn anything from a course, I learned a lot, but actually doing something is where I learned all the stuff they don't tell you in a course, which in tech is a LOT. The devil is in the details IME.

 

[bbbass]

That's great - I am all for diversity, and my profession is mostly male, which sucks. But it sucks even more when it is obvious that they were interested in me because they thought (wrongly) that I was female, and then lose interest when they find out I am not the gender they expected. Not common, but it has happened.

6 months into my position with Air Life of Oregon, my female supervisor told me that she hired me because I was a male, and she was tired of all the females that she had made cry. I told her that men don't cry, they just get pissed off and leave... she can't say I didn't warn her!!!

 

[bbbass]

I am sure the age discrimination has happened too - but it hasn't been as obvious.

I applied for a job in response to an ad from one of our local RV manufacturing plants. Sent in a resume tailored to show my experience pulling wire with AT&T... never got a call.

I called up and complained. When they finally asked me to come in, the mgr/super was very peeved, talked down to me, made some ref to me not being able to keep up with the young work force, and terminated the "interview" after two minutes.

Yeah it exists, but how many court cases can I find??? None.

 

[The Heretic]

I applied for a job in response to an ad from one of our local RV manufacturing plants. Sent in a resume tailored to show my experience pulling wire with AT&T... never got a call.

I called up and complained. When they finally asked me to come in, the mgr/super was very peeved, talked down to me, made some ref to me not being able to keep up with the young work force, and terminated the "interview" after two minutes.

Yeah it exists, but how many court cases can I find??? None.

Most of the court cases come from being laid off/fired - especially where there is documentation of the manager saying something about age (it would be helpful anymore to have one of the pens that is a camera/voice recorder) and/or where there is retaliation.

I've seen some orgs take great care during layoffs to show there was no discrimination there - they would publish, without names, the ages of those laid off, to show there was no pattern. But when you are one of the very few at the upper end, and there are 20 people laid off, there can still be discrimination and it won't show up as a pattern.

But yes, they are real careful about now. I am too. I do not share my age/etc. in an interview, or anything that hints at my age. I could theoretically pass for being in my fifties - but that doesn't necessarily help when they want someone in their thirties.

Just the same, I try to avoid it. I just had a call with a recruiter and I did not mention my age or the fact that I wanted to retire. If I get a job, great - I will work another year maybe two - but not going to make that mistake again.

 

[bbbass]

When I first got out, I thought my experience as a mech (mostly diesel, but a lot of other experience too) in the military would help. Previously I couldn't break into being a mech because I lacked the job experience even though I had the knowledge and aptitude, so I thought, formal military training, then almost 4 years as a mech? Nope. Employers not interested, didn't care. Even after going to voc school they didn't care.

I dropped that - got my EE degree. Got out just as the tech industry hit a slump. Had to compete with hundreds of engineers (while I was an inexperienced tech) from Tektronix who had just laid off a bunch of people. Had interviews in Seattle a few times - nothing in the Portland area. Gave up and went to Calif. and had more interest in me there in one week than in 6 months in the PNW. Got a phone call from a tech corp in Seattle who hired me over the phone. From there, it was mostly up to where I am now.

Weird how it works sometimes, but I am disillusioned as to what a stint in the military would do for most anybody in the civilian job market. I think if a person spent that same time in the civilian market they would be better off job wise.

Sorry to be a downer, but it is what it is, and this is a thread about what sucks.

AFAIK most employers today are looking for "specific" experience with certain models, equip, software, etc. Hardly anyone is wanting to hire someone with basic experience and train them up anymore.

Yet, my neighbor just got into a job as a plumber's apprentice. Trades are needing people badly... at least they were... when this all ends I'm pretty sure all trades will be screaming for trainees again... As soon as trade schools start up again, a vet would be smart to get a loan to go.

 

[bbbass]

But yes, they are real careful about now. I am too. I do not share my age/etc. in an interview, or anything that hints at my age. I could theoretically pass for being in my fifties - but that doesn't necessarily help when they want someone in their thirties.

They are tricky... the application I filled out had a line for my birthdate... they aren't allowed to actually ask your age. But if you don't "completely" fill out the application, that is grounds for automatic rejection.

 

[UnionMillsNW]

The job search isn't fun. But it's not impossible.

I worked as a type of career search counselor for several years.

Some industries are just hard to break into (like video games) other industries have plenty of openings and the formula for success isn't rocket science.

I've seen countless job seekers with poorly formatted resumes, unprofessional voicemails, and chips on both shoulders. A Hiring Manager has to sort through all of those just to find a qualified applicant and it gets tedious.

What if you are a qualified applicant? Well so are two dozen other people so what makes you stand out?

In my experience being humble and flexible are the two biggest indicators of success in the job search.

If you're in the military, a veteran, or the spouse of a veteran you can sign up for free career search assistance (everything from help with your resume to interview practice) all for free at www.hireheroesusa.org

There's no catch, it's just a nonprofit that wants to put military families back to work.

If you're not a veteran (or are a vet and for some reason don't want to sign up for free services with Hire Heroes USA) just shoot me an email at [email protected] and I can give you some resources to help in the career search.

 

[The Heretic]

AFAIK most employers today are looking for "specific" experience with certain models, equip, software, etc. Hardly anyone is wanting to hire someone with basic experience and train them up anymore.

They are looking for someone to hit the ground running. It gets ridiculous when someone posts a requirement for 10 years experience in an SDK/API/etc. that hasn't been in existence for but 2 years. You know then that it is some HR person who is just winging it.

Yet, my neighbor just got into a job as a plumber's apprentice. Trades are needing people badly... at least they were... when this all ends I'm pretty sure all trades will be screaming for trainees again... As soon as trade schools start up again, a vet would be smart to get a loan to go.

Trades are ok for someone under 40-50, but at some point you either need to move up into management or do something else, because your knees/back/etc. can't take it anymore. Have a friend my age who can't work at Boeing anymore because of his knees. I told him 20 years ago to get into something tech where he wasn't doing physical work anymore, but he didn't listen.

I can't stand for more than 15 minutes before I have to sit down due to my back/neck injuries. I can't lift, I can bend over, I can't be on my knees, I can't walk very far.

The only things I have are my brains, my hands and my eyes - if one of those goes, I won't be able to get another job at all - and my eyes are slowly going away.

 

[The Heretic]

What if you are a qualified applicant? Well so are two dozen other people so what makes you stand out?

In my experience being humble and flexible are the two biggest indicators of success in the job search.

I am sure I come across as a curmudgeon at least, someone with a really poor attitude at worst.

I don't let a prospective employer hear that.

Flexibility is important, can do attitude, also a 'will do' attitude (as in, do what you are asked to do even if you don't want to).

It is a job - one that I am paid really well for, one that I usually enjoy, even when I have to do something I don't enjoy from time to time.

 

[bbbass]

Trades are ok for someone under 40-50, but at some point you either need to move up into management or do something else, because your knees/back/etc. can't take it anymore. Have a friend my age who can't work at Boeing anymore because of his knees. I told him 20 years ago to get into something tech where he wasn't doing physical work anymore, but he didn't listen.

I can't stand for more than 15 minutes before I have to sit down due to my back/neck injuries. I can't lift, I can bend over, I can't be on my knees, I can't walk very far.

The only things I have are my brains, my hands and my eyes - if one of those goes, I won't be able to get another job at all - and my eyes are slowly going away.

Yes.

I mentioned that medical forced me to go back to my old job of working on radios (can't do home inspections if one can't focus and analyze, can't remember what he saw, can't get up in attics or under houses, but really the liability of making a mental mistake was the biggest prob)... well that job included installing radios in vehicles, and putting the entire suite of equipt into cop cars, fire trucks, ambu, etc. Light bar, siren module, taillight cutout switch, wig wag, camera, shotgun/AR mount, radio console, laptop tray, and on and on. Very physical...

And that is how I lost my job at age 60. Not able to do that kind of work due to arthritis and diabetic neuropathy.

And then I went to work for my millwright buddy, but really couldn't cut it so I said sorry and left (even tho he didn't expect much and was being nice to me, I felt like I was taking a paycheck that I didn't deserve. Yeah, not from a friend.). Went thru all the SS Disability for 2yrs of rejections and appeals, finally got to a judge, and they told me that i could still find a job using my brain. Right, what little brain I have still tested well with the quack shrink they sent me to... but they couldn't tell me where I was supposed to find someone willing to hire a 60yr old. Maybe the radio station.

 

[The Heretic]

Yes.

I mentioned that medical forced me to go back to my old job of working on radios... well that job including installing radios in vehicles, and putting the entire suite of equipt into cop cars, fire trucks, ambu, etc. Light bar, siren module, taillight cutout switch, wig wag, camera, shotgun/AR mount, radio console, laptop tray, and on and on. Very physical...

And that is how I lost my job at age 60.

And then I went to work for my millwright buddy, but really couldn't cut it so I said sorry and left. Went thru all the SS Disability for 2yrs of rejections and appeals, finally got to a judge, and they told me that i could still find a job using my brain. Right, what little brain I have still tested well with the quack shrink they sent me to... but they couldn't tell me where I was supposed to find someone willing to hire a 60yr old. Maybe the radio station.

I am not sure about my brain sometimes. Sometimes I just have problems figuring something out when I shouldn't have that problem. But then I think about some of the devs who I have worked with who can't seem to think their way out of a wet paper bag. Or the new inexperienced devs who need my mentoring. I finally figure it out, and move on.

I am self-trained. My degrees have nothing to do with my job. I don't even remember 99% of my EE education - although with a six month refresher I could pick it up again.

I am glad I am close to retirement. It was getting to be a grind at times, and I really want to retire after almost half a century of working. We'll see what happens. I am glad for the stimulus in that sense, but it is going to hurt the economy in the long term - and someone will have to deal with that deficit/debt eventually.

 

[The Heretic]

The thing that really sucks is looking for a job when everybody else is getting laid off and entering the job market. It would not be that hard for me 6 months ago, but now I will have about 6-7 times as many people to compete against for that job, and vice versa.

 

[Ducati_Meister]

The thing that really sucks is looking for a job when everybody else is getting laid off and entering the job market. It would not be that hard for me 6 months ago, but now I will have about 6-7 times as many people to compete against for that job, and vice versa.

This whole job thing has become a s**t show really.

 

[titsonritz]

What sucks the most about job searching?

All of it.

 

[Hueco]

While I understand what @Hueco said about canning the one page resume, I would just caution you to keep everything relevant to the job position. I was a hiring manager for a couple years and when I had a short amount of time to weed through 30+ resumes for the same position, those that were more than a page or two full of fluff and certifications or experience that had nothing to do with the job position, didn't get a lot of love. Stick to the position you are applying for.

I should have clarified that point; I completely agree with you on keeping everything relevant.

An example of what I meant: My role often requests that I show experience in building transformative processes that save the company time and money and marketing initiatives that drive sales. I have at least 10 examples I could pull from for these for every company that I've worked for. If I limit the points to two per company, I'm at nearly half a page on this one job role request alone.

Most job roles are looking for ~7-10 major tasks. For someone new to the workforce, yes, one page is probably all they have. I noticed that I started struggling to keep a one-pager after ~5 years of experience in my field. Getting over the internal hurdle of limiting myself to a page has only helped me since - but you are absolutely right: don't use fluff. If you have examples pertinent to the job, then use them. If not, don't use fluff. No one like fluff.

 

[The Heretic]

I could do a full page or two on just the one job I have had for the past 8+ years. But I kept it to 3 bullet points. Above that, the tech that I have been working on in that job. So in the first half of the first page, you can see my most relevant and recent experience.

Below my last job, much more detail on each position, but each of those is tech that much of I have not had exposure to since then - meaning if they need that experience, I would need to refresh on it, and tech is a moving target - the APIs and sometimes the core concepts change quickly. But you can then see I have progressed from that, have a wider range of experience to bring to the fore than just my last job.

The first page, especially the first half, of a resume is what we used to call the "executive summary" because executives can't be bothered (are too lazy) to read the whole thing. An HR person or manager is going to spend 30 seconds looking at a resume - if you haven't captured their attention by then, you have lost the race. They might look at the rest of it if they see what they like in that 30 seconds. If they don't, it gets set aside.

Today, they are going to be getting hundreds if not thousands of resumes for each position. Keep that in mind. They don't want to have to dig to find what they are looking for. Keep it relevant and up front.

For tech, they look for buzz words - the tech APIs/SDKs.

OTOH - don't throw something in that you are not comfortable discussing. Don't BS (I've seen resumes where someone thought they were a dev because they could write macros for Excel) - if you get past the BS filters, they will catch you out in the interview - better to not say you know something than to BS them.

 

[bbbass]

don't use fluff. No one like fluff.

Yeah.... I fluff the covers and my wife really don't like it!!!