What is unique about black powder that allows it to be used in barrels and cartridges?

[arakboss]

^
Yeah, when its like 8 grains to push a 150ish grain .44 cal out the tube.

Amazingly the rifle still held together with that 83gr charge (except for bulge).

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Again its way to much math and chemistry for me.

But I do know that its a bad idea to use smokeless powder in a firearm designed for black powder
Don't do it.

Keep it simple...use black powder , or a black powder substitute ( if you must ) in muzzle loading firearms.
Andy

 

[arakboss]

Spoiler he didn't lose any fingers:

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Spoiler
I took a page from Certaindeaf and didn't click....

With that said....
Just cause it worked here , with this revolver ...does not mean that it will work in your firearm or as it did in the video every time.

Do as you wish...
I however do not suggest using anything other black powder or a black powder substitute in a muzzle loader.
Why use something your firearm was not designed to use....?
Would you use diesel instead of gas for your car , if it was non-diesel...?
Andy

 

[tac]

Amazingly the rifle still held together with that 83gr charge (except for bulge).

Were you watching the same video that I was? The breech was blown wide open on the one I looked at.

 

[arakboss]

Were you watching the same video that I was? The breech was blown wide open on the one I looked at.

It was the 80gr charge of titegroup that blew the rifle open. H-110 charge just bulged the barrel.

 

[tac]

VERY basically - the quality and shear strength of steel used for BP firearms is LESS than that used for a nitro arm.

That is why you can buy a BP revolver, new for around $300.

And a nitro revolver of quality for around $700 or more.

Typical nitro loads are around twice the pressure of a similar calibre BP load, and develop - spike - far quicker due to the way that nitro actually burns.

 

[tac]

It was the 80gr charge of titegroup that blew the rifle open. H-110 charge just bulged the barrel.

You are right. But would you have liked to have been holding it while it 'just' bulged?

 

[tac]

Again its way to much math and chemistry for me.

But I do know that its a bad idea to use smokeless powder in a firearm designed for black powder
Don't do it.

Keep it simple...use black powder , or a black powder substitute ( if you must ) in muzzle loading firearms.
Andy

Andy, old flún, you and I will just have to accept that there are people who just HAVE to try something out just to see what happens.

Some are astronauts and we call them heroes.

Others like to play around using the incorrect propellant in a gun that was made for something else.

We call them, more often than not, 'Stumpy'.

 

[Stomper]

Simply put....Black powder operates at a lower pressure than smokeless powder.
There is far more math and science into this...but I don't worry my pretty little head 'bout it.....
Andy

Edit to add :
A excellent resource for this question is :
Lyman Black powder Handbook...I have a copy will dig up the actual answer later if you would like.

That's a DAMNED LIE!!














Your head ain't pretty, and it sure ain't small!!

 

[03A3Sporter]

Everyone is forgetting the other part of the equation . It is not just the powder , its the design limitations of MOST black powder firearms . They were designed when black powder was the propellant everyone used. Smokeless wasn't a thing so there is that as well .

fixed cartridges changed a lot of things with firearms design , and its also why you can use smokeless in black powder era cartridge firing guns assuming you respect their design limitations and the metallurgy.

My trapdoor since coming into my possession has never fired a single cartridge with black powder as a propellant. Lots of people love to cite the Wolfes and using black powder as the way to get accuracy out of the old girl, but I can easily keep those 45 caliber pills into 2 inches at 100 yards with 2400 all day every day . It doesn't seem to enjoy 4198 as much but none the less it shoot them acceptably.

For those that want a smokeless front stuffer Savage does or did make one .. I owned one for a while

 

[Dinglenutz]

Why can't smokeless powder be used in a muzzleloader?

Can, it just has to be formulated to burn "like" BP I believe. The hardcore enthusiasts don't seem to be unitedly behind the concept.

 

[arakboss]

Can, it just has to be formulated to burn "like" BP I believe. The hardcore enthusiasts don't seem to be unitedly behind the concept.

It's a safety trigger for sure. If I ever try it in my Traditions Pursuit, it will be with fishing line pulling the trigger. I think Trail Boss might be a good candidate if you can from crushing it too badly when seating the projectile.

 

[Dinglenutz]

It's a safety trigger for sure. If I ever try it in my Traditions Pursuit, it will be with fishing line pulling the trigger. I think Trail Boss might be a good candidate if you can from crushing it too badly when seating the projectile.

They make powders specifically as BP replacements.

Black powder substitute - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Black Powder Substitute Roundup

The fundamental problem is that the nitro stuff has a lot more energy per volume. It's also apparently harder to ignite? Andy is an actual expert I think.

 

[arakboss]

They make powders specifically as BP replacements.

Black powder substitute - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Black Powder Substitute Roundup

Pyrodex is all I have used in my inline, I have never used Black Powder.

 

[tac]

Most people were introduced to the subs, like Pyrodex, because they had difficulty in find real BP. I was, back in 1981, because we lived in Berlin, and there was NO BP as it was deemed to be a military propellant and therefore banned by the Four-Power Agreement that allowed or prohibited what went on in that then-divided city. So if I wanted to shoot my couple of BP guns, it was a sub or nothing. A good friend at the time, who was then, and still is, a well-known historian, DID manage to get hold of some BP, and we used it when we were doing the stills for one of his books on the subject. I never asked how, just accepted it, and got on with shooting all manner of fascinating stuff that I'd never seen before.

Here in UK Pyrodex and subs is an easy option because it can be stored just like any other non-BP medium and does not require the special safety containers that UK and Euro safety legislation requires - a wooden box, partitioned off into six section, each holding a one pound container of BP, and with a flame-resistant closure.

Arakboss above, using Pyrodex in his in-line, can do so because he is also using #209 shotgun primers that ignite in the straight line directly into the charge. Pyrodex, BTW, is 99% useless in a flintlock because its ignition temperature is way higher than the flame generated by the burning flame of an amount of 4F in an adjacent pan. BP goes off most anything more than 175 - 250Fm but Pyrodex goes off at around 600F or so, and I'll let you guess about Triple 7.

Regardless of what the makers tell you, the subs are VERY corrosive, just in a different way. They STILL require you to clean the gun thoroughly after shooting, as soon as you are able, but because they are based on non-natural substances, just using water won't do it and they need a chemical clean-up just like nitro.

I write a lot on our sister forum, muzzleloadingforum.com - which I heartily recommend for BP-ists here - and there has been much written about the subs.

TBH, you either like 'em and use 'em, or you don't and take the micky out of those who do. However, THE advantage is that because it is bulkier than the equivalent BP, 30gr by volume of BP can be equalled by ~10% less Pyrodex, and ~15% less T7.

Most associations who shoot m/l arms of one kind or another ban ALL subs - in the US of a, the N-SSA bans it's use implicitly, and here in UK the MLAGB and LRRBPCSA does, as do all the re-enactment groups like The Sealed Knot and others. Too, of course, the international organisation that runs all BP competitive shooting world-wide views subs as the machinations of Satan.

One last thing - and opinions differ widely on this - but IMO the subs degrade over time - substantially. Many others disagree. I have found that IME, a 30gr load of Pyrodex P behind a ball in my Ruger Old Army will shoot like this -

NEW tub of P - average 970fps for 12 shots.

OLD tub of P - average 740fps for 12 shots.

You can take it to the bank, or ignore it - but there it is.

 

[arakboss]

Most people were introduced to the subs, like Pyrodex, because they had difficulty in find real BP. I was, back in 1981, because we lived in Berlin, and there was NO BP as it was deemed to be a military propellant and therefore banned by the Four-Power Agreement that allowed or prohibited what went on in that then-divided city. So if I wanted to shoot my couple of BP guns, it was a sub or nothing. A good friend at the time, who was then, and still is, a well-known historian, DID manage to get hold of some BP, and we used it when we were doing the stills for one of his books on the subject. I never asked how, just accepted it, and got on with shooting all manner of fascinating stuff that I'd never seen before.

Here in UK Pyrodex and subs is an easy option because it can be stored just like any other non-BP medium and does not require the special safety containers that UK and Euro safety legislation requires - a wooden box, partitioned off into six section, each holding a one pound container of BP, and with a flame-resistant closure.

Arakboss above, using Pyrodex in his in-line, can do so because he is also using #209 shotgun primers that ignite in the straight line directly into the charge. Pyrodex, BTW, is 99% useless in a flintlock because its ignition temperature is way higher than the flame generated by the burning flame of an amount of 4F in an adjacent pan. BP goes off most anything more than 175 - 250Fm but Pyrodex goes off at around 600F or so, and I'll let you guess about Triple 7.

Regardless of what the makers tell you, the subs are VERY corrosive, just in a different way. They STILL require you to clean the gun thoroughly after shooting, as soon as you are able, but because they are based on non-natural substances, just using water won't do it and they need a chemical clean-up just like nitro.

I write a lot on our sister forum, muzzleloadingforum.com - which I heartily recommend for BP-ists here - and there has been much written about the subs.

TBH, you either like 'em and use 'em, or you don't and take the micky out of those who do. However, THE advantage is that because it is bulkier than the equivalent BP, 30gr by volume of BP can be equalled by ~10% less Pyrodex, and ~15% less T7.

Most associations who shoot m/l arms of one kind or another ban ALL subs - here in UK the MLAGB and LRRBPCSA does, too, and of course, the international organisation that runs all BP competitive shooting world-wide views subs as the machinations of Satan.

One last thing - and opinions differ widely on this - but IMO the subs degrade over time - substantially. Many others disagree. I have found that IME, a 30gr load of Pyrodex P behind a ball in my Ruger Old Army will shoot like this -

NEW tub of P - average 970fps for 12 shots.

OLD tub of P - average 740fps for 12 shots.

You can take it to the bank, or ignore it - but there it is.

My inline use percussion caps and I haven't had any problems lighting up the triple 7s

 

[tac]

My inline use percussion caps and I haven't had any problems lighting up the triple 7s

OK, then a percussion cap, and not a shotgun primer. However, the average percussion cap has a flame temperature approaching 1300F.

 

[arakboss]

OK, then a percussion cap, and not a shotgun primer. However, the average percussion cap has a flame temperature approaching 1300F.

That is hot!

 

[Quirt Evans]

In some ways the depictions of the disasters using smokeless in BP firearms was "weighted", if you will.
For example, in the clip of using the H-110, which is a pretty fast powder.
Had they used something like H-870, or H-50BMG the results might have been a lot different.
It is possible to use powder that's so slow that it won't obtain much pressure in small amounts with non-bottleneck chambers..
When I tried using IMR 4350 in a .44 Mag it seemed as though the bullet hardly got out of the barrel.