What is unique about black powder that allows it to be used in barrels and cartridges?

[arakboss]

Why can't smokeless powder be used in a muzzleloader? Why can BP can be used in both a muzzleloader and cartridges?

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[Andy54Hawken]

Simply put....Black powder operates at a lower pressure than smokeless powder.
There is far more math and science into this...but I don't worry my pretty little head 'bout it.....
Andy

Edit to add :
A excellent resource for this question is :
Lyman Black powder Handbook...I have a copy will dig up the actual answer later if you would like.

 

[P7M13]

Burn rates being one of them. There's a great deal more chemistry and physics behind this....
Good read : https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/black-powder-burning-rate/

If you want to have fun, look into making your own black powder.

 

[tac]

Why can't smokeless powder be used in a muzzleloader? Why can BP can be used in both a muzzleloader and cartridges?

Sure you can use nitro in a muzzleloader.


Once.

 

[osprey]

If you want to safely burn smokeless powder in a muzzle loader many outfits will make a rifle for you to do so. Or you can do as I did and convert a modern rifle to a smokeless muzzleloader. The key is to start with a barrel designed to handle the pressure of smokeless powder. https://www.northwestfirearms.com/t...ne-we-dont-need-no-stinking-cartridge.357503/

 

[Quirt Evans]

A lot of chemistry and math involved,,.
The burn rates and pressure curves are easily controlled with smokeless, whilst black powder is more of an "explosive", even though it's considered as low pressure.
Weather in a muzzle loader, or a cartridge, when using black powder NO air space can be allowed between the powder and the projectile, if air space is allowed you CAN blow-up a gun with black powder.

 

[tac]

Black powder [AKA Gunpowder]r is internationally described under the former and current HAZMAT rules as a Class 1 [low] explosive.

Gunpowder is classified as a low explosive because of its relatively slow decomposition rate and consequently low brisance [shattering power]. Low explosives deflagrate (i.e., burn) at subsonic speeds, whereas high explosives detonate producing a supersonic shockwave. Ignition of gunpowder packed behind a projectile generates enough pressure to force the shot from the muzzle at high speed, but usually not enough force to rupture the gun barrel. Gunpowder thus makes a good propellant, but is less suitable for shattering rock or fortifications with its low-yield explosive power. Nonetheless it was widely used to fill fused artillery shells (and used in mining and civil engineering projects) until the second half of the 19th century, when the first high explosives were put into use.

Smokeless powders are typically classified as division 1.3 explosives under the UN Recommendations on the transportation of Dangerous Goods – Model Regulations, regional regulations (such as ASDR) and national regulations. However, they are used as solid propellants; in normal use, they undergo deflagration rather than detonation.

As Osprey notes, unless a gun has been made specifically to use both nitro OR black powder then it is a very dangerous thing to do. Note than many modern replica LONG ARMS are proofed first for nitro and THEN are deemed fit for use with BP loads by default. If they are strong enough for nitro then it is axiomatic that they will be strong enough for BP as well. Handguns that can do both are VERY rare in the USA, but not in the UK, although it involves the use of a nitro propellant-proofed cylinder that replaces the BP version.

 

[tac]

Eric makes a good case -

 

[arakboss]

good video above but what might have happened had they only used a 1/4 of the H110

 

[tac]

Over in the USA where most anybody can buy a BP gun of any kind, even a convicted felon, it would be really easy to buy an old clunker like Eric did, and find out for yourself.

Oh, and make a YT video of it, too, please.

Here in UK, where each and every firearm used to fire a live round is a registered and documented item that has to be accounted for in law, you'd have to be crazy to do carry out such an experiment unless you had access to government or commercial trials facilities.

So, basically, it's over to you..........................

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Eric makes a good case -

That's an awesome experiment! Someone send those guys a blunderbuss to do next. They could do something like those "will it blend?" Videos where they try to blend all kinds of crap in a blender except they stuff all kinds of crap down the muzzle of a blunderbus.

I can see it now, a whole you tube channel called, "will it blunderbus?"

 

[Yotehunt]

Why can't smokeless powder be used in a muzzleloader? Why can BP can be used in both a muzzleloader and cartridges?

Because it doesn't smoke.. Duh!

Some good info from the above. I am just getting into it myself.

 

[titsonritz]

Why can't smokeless powder be used in a muzzleloader? Why can BP can be used in both a muzzleloader and cartridges?

One makes bigger booms than the other.

 

[Yotehunt]

I just learned that a 125% of H110 to ball grain, still works.

 

[Spitpatch]

Sure you can use nitro in a muzzleloader.
View attachment 828851

Once.

An open top conversion!

 

[HaveGun]

Why can BP can be used in both a muzzleloader and cartridges?

It can.

This cartridge is filled with 65 grains of blackpowder...



.45 Colt was originally loaded with a 255gr bullet and 40 grains of blackpowder.

 

[arakboss]

It can.

This cartridge is filled with 65 grains of blackpowder...

View attachment 829340

.45 Colt was originally loaded with a 255gr bullet and 40 grains of blackpowder.

I understand that BP can be used in both. I am trying to understand why you can't use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader, assuming you kept the pressure levels the same as BP pressure levels.

Edit: It's possible that because of the way smokeless powder burns that you can't load it to BP pressure levels without a high risk of getting a projectile stuck in the bore, but that doesn't seem likely. It could be that muzzleloader ignitions won't light off smokeless powder but clearly wasn't an issue in the video tac linked to. I think it may just be an issue of not having load data for smokeless powder in muzzleloaders.

 

[Yotehunt]

Really comes down to burn rate (heat, FPS, PSI), and materials used for weapon (metallurgy). This is an early form of powder right, when items were simple and not as refined. Most muzzle loaders are cheaper, likely not tempered or heat treated and likely cannot expel the gas quick enough, so bye bye breech. They do make muzzies that can take modern powders, at least they did.

I would imagine early wheel guns used BP because the weapon was enhanced mechanically and by capacity. But those also soon evolved again as did propellants and metallurgy.

Comes down to just not designed for it and not popular. Its easy to go start up any 2021 shiny car, its not so easy to cold start my 1966 Nova and keep it in tune. Part of the nostalgia or fun factor if you will.

Chime in if someone thinks I am way off here.

See gif for every time you fire anything using BP.

 

[arakboss]

Eric makes a good case -

I would have rather seen them stick to smokeless powder in the video instead of abusing the rifle with obscene bp loads prior to an 83gr (by weight) charge of H110. They could have done this test with a different powder that could be loaded down better. They could have started at a low charge and then worked their way up until the rifle came apart. The test was clearly designed to cause immediate failure, probably to deter people from experimenting with this idea. I am not sure a modern firearm would have survived that level of H110 charge.

 

[Yotehunt]

^
Yeah, when its like 8 grains to push a 150ish grain .44 cal out the tube.