What is the "definition" of rapid fire?

[revjen45]

"Actually, what you want to say is nothing unless you are talking to your attorney. "

Hey!! That's what I wuz gonna say! Other than "I was in fear for my life" of course.
"Oh my God!! I'm having a heart attack!!" Then fall down. If you can foam at the mouth on demand that's a nice touch.

 

[Spitpatch]

I won't be a member of nor financially support any range or club that has arbitrary restrictions on rate of fire.

My normal drill is draw from the holster and fire two, 3, or four rapid shots, and do the same from the ready. My shot groups are typically within a hand-sized group or smaller in the thoracic area of the target.

There is nothing remotely unsafe about this. I've been a member of a couple of clubs who simply ban unsafe practices, as defined by the range master. If you're emptying out your AR and hitting the target, I don't care how fast you're shooting. If you're SLOW firing and putting rounds over the berm, you're done.

I don't doubt for a minute that what you say here IN REFERENCE TO YOURSELF is absolutely true.

However: Rules and regulations (and laws for that matter) are not for those with self-discipline and good judgement and practiced skill. If you would abstain from joining a shooting organization because it has rules in place to protect ALL (including those with self-discipline as yourself) from those lacking self-discipline or good judgement, then you may have a long search to find one that does not. I believe you are fortunate if you have found one.

Unfortunately it is likewise just as difficult to screen individuals for self-discipline and good judgement as criteria for joining. I would join you in support of your idea that the range master should literally "call the shots", but at that point the club opens itself to much debate and controversy (since different range masters will have different standards).

If there were no idiots in the world, we could live in peaceful anarchy.

 

[JackD]

Interesting discussion. I guess I'm fortunate to live in the PNW, where I can drive 15 minutes and be in a forest or BLM land where I can practice without those restrictions. Club range rules seem to make it impossible or, at least, difficult to practice the skills necessary for SD.

If 10 shots in five seconds on the target are not good enough....they have to all be in the "X"......how do you get there without the ability to practice?

 

[Misterbill]

I don't doubt for a minute that what you say here IN REFERENCE TO YOURSELF is absolutely true.

However: Rules and regulations (and laws for that matter) are not for those with self-discipline and good judgement and practiced skill. If you would abstain from joining a shooting organization because it has rules in place to protect ALL (including those with self-discipline as yourself) from those lacking self-discipline or good judgement, then you may have a long search to find one that does not. I believe you are fortunate if you have found one.

Unfortunately it is likewise just as difficult to screen individuals for self-discipline and good judgement as criteria for joining. I would join you in support of your idea that the range master should literally "call the shots", but at that point the club opens itself to much debate and controversy (since different range masters will have different standards).

If there were no idiots in the world, we could live in peaceful anarchy.

So you're pro-gun control right? I mean, Hell, you just used the Brady Bunch's arguments.

 

[Spitpatch]

I would call that a leap of logic, but upon further examination it fails the latter half.

Pick out a statement there to disagree with IN RELATION TO THE TOPIC AT HAND (not construction of merry-go-rounds, fly fishing, the price of potatoes in Poughkeepsie or gun control), and defend your disagreement. I trust the statement you pick will not be one of those where I recognized your skill, discipline, and judgement, nor the one where I agreed with your trust in a Range Master.

 

[Misterbill]

Having a set of totally arbitrary rules which excludes realistic practice totally defeats the purpose of a range.

No more than one shot every two seconds is a common rule I've seen. Considering the "standard" for draw and fire two rounds is 1.5 seconds, you can easily see the problem.

A good range doesn't have these arbitrary silly rules. They have the usual basic ones about guns not being handled while people are downrange and insist you be able to control your shots. That's all that's needed.

Banning a practice, when if not done by an IDIOT is perfectly safe and useful because someone MIGHT be unsafe is stupid. It punishes everyone for the POTENTIAL misdeeds of a few. And no, I've never had a hard time finding a range or club without bogus rules like that.

If you're being unsafe at any club I've been a member of, the other members will shut you down pretty quick. If they don't, the range master will, permanently, by banning you from the facility.

Banning defensive shooting practice from a gun range is just the lamest thing I've ever seen in the gun community. And it's usually pushed by people with no clue about what's going on or why. The same guys that want AR owners to only load five rounds in a magazine at one time. The same ones who will happily vote to ban guns they don't own because "no one needs a AR-15 for duck hunting."

This is the FUDD mentality. They are worse than antis because they hide under the banner of "gun owner" while selling us all down the river.

 

[Spitpatch]

"A good range doesn't have these arbitrary silly rules. They have the usual basic ones about guns not being handled while people are downrange and insist you be able to control your shots. That's all that's needed."

I would wager rather confidently that the list of rules at nearly all public gun ranges would be a bit more comprehensive than these two parameters, and would request you submit the name of the range that you are a current member of so that we all may benefit in learning how it should be done by reading their very brief list of rules. I would be seriously interested in bringing such a brief list to the attention of my own shooting range and demonstrate to them (perhaps with your help) how liability and safety concerns can be addressed just as effectively as with their current list (which extends somewhat beyond what you describe).

Once again, I will say that the rules are not specifically purposeful toward restricting the activity of those who might concientiously and skillfully engage in useful practice that entails rapid fire. The rule's main purpose is to protect those persons (AND others at the range and beyond the range) from persons who might engage in rapid fire without the necessary skill, self control and judgement. A written preliminary understanding might prevent a tragedy that even a quickly acting Range Master could not. To believe that rules and laws are all directed at oneself to restrict ("punish") oneself might indicate some level of egocentricity. A law against driving 100mph does not exist in order to deprive one of a thrilling (skillful) spin in one's Lotus. It exists to protect one's family when in one's station wagon from a whole highway full of drivers (not in Lotuses and of varying skill) going 100.

I am also confident that most persons fully understand the serious potential for liability that is part of the territory of a gun range operation. Protection and preservation of the range resource against potential litigation is another reason for the rule.

 

[RVTECH]

No need for rapid fire anyway - control and shot placement is still paramount.

 

[MarkAd]

RVTECH on this part "control and shot placement is still paramount. " you are correct, however there is a need for rapid fire be it 10 shots in 10 seconds or 10 shots in 5 seconds. There are many benefits to it. I run my 45 at at multiple targets , multiple distance, to build and hone skills in rapid target identification and shot placement. It also forces rapid mag changes, another great skill to have. In addition to focus, breathing control and confidence building.
Even more important - It is fun

 

[Spitpatch]

Perhaps what my club has done is a solution everybody can live with. Rapid fire is prohibited on every range except the Action range (for practical pistol, etc.). There, rapid fire is allowed, but ALL shooters on that range must be pre-certified to use that range. The berms and side barriers on that range are quite a bit bigger than at other ranges, so it becomes pretty darned difficult to get a bullet out of that area.

It is understandable that a range without these resources (ability to devote range officers for certification times, and oversize berms and barriers) might prohibit rapid fire altogether. With that understanding, I would not deprive myself of the benefits of joining such a range because they do what makes perfect sense, and nor would I believe the Club Officers were somehow working against gunowners' interest.

 

[sheepman]

The range where I shoot has a one shot per-second rule and does not allow drawing from a holster other than on the indoor range during action pistol match or practice nights. The out door pistol range has target stand at 7yd, 15yd and 25yd. This range receives the most damage, some shooters can not shoot well enough to avoid shooting 4ft low at 15yds (shots in the grass). The same people that won't flow rules for others safety are often the ones that sweep others with there muzzle or damage the range with there sprayed shots.

We pay almost $20,000 a year for insurance and have to meet a number of qualifications to get it at that price. I will no longer shoot in the public shooting (BLM etc) areas because of the unsafe people using them and leaving trash all over.

 

[Misterbill]

Funny, I am a former member at Harvard Sprotsmans Club in Harvard Mass (Nor restrictions pretty much beyond "Don't be unsafe") and am currently a member of Sun Valley Shooting Park, where there is a "no rapid fire" rule in effect, that essentially is interpreted as "don't scare the crap out of us with your unsafe shooting."

In the latter, I have yet to see anyone doing rapid fire (which includes numerous LEOs BTW) being given any grief. I'm also not aware of a single "indeident."

The paranoia that prevails over this stuff is just astounding.

My BASIC classes folks, the ones I teach to people who have never TOUCHED a gun before, gets every student up to firing two rounds in 1 second from the ready. Because that's BASIC defensive shooting practice. If you asshats do not grasp that TWO rounds to thoracic is is a MINIMUM for a real-life defensive shooting situation, you don't know WTF you are talking about. Banning that practice is an egregious disservice to your members.

This is NOT an unsafe practice. Not in any way means or shape or form. There are only unsafe PEOPLE. Bannin those PEOPLE, I'm all in favor of. Banning a totally legit, needful and necessary form of self defense training is FUDDERY at it's worst.

Once again, you're taking the Brady Bunches arguments and running with them. Someone MIGHT do something illegal/irresposible with a gun, so we're just banning the whole deal.

There is ZERO difference. You guys arguing for this stupid point should just join VPC. At least you'd be consistent with your Mala Prohibita BS.

 

[sheepman]

You are correct in that rapped fire is not unsafe , nor is moving while shooting (if you are trained and responsible). Most new shooters are unsafe in that they do not know proper gun handling. The rules are to make sure that there is no accidents. Range safety is not anti gun, requiring actions to be open when not on the line, guns pointed down range or cased when not shooting, aimed shots (reason for one second rule where I shoot). If you do not like the restrictions of a range (usually privately owned), then don't shoot there, or buy it and run the range they way you want.

 

[Spitpatch]

Funny, I am a former member at Harvard Sprotsmans Club in Harvard Mass (Nor restrictions pretty much beyond "Don't be unsafe") and am currently a member of Sun Valley Shooting Park, where there is a "no rapid fire" rule in effect, that essentially is interpreted as "don't scare the crap out of us with your unsafe shooting."

In the latter, I have yet to see anyone doing rapid fire (which includes numerous LEOs BTW) being given any grief. I'm also not aware of a single "indeident."

The paranoia that prevails over this stuff is just astounding.

My BASIC classes folks, the ones I teach to people who have never TOUCHED a gun before, gets every student up to firing two rounds in 1 second from the ready. Because that's BASIC defensive shooting practice. If you asshats do not grasp that TWO rounds to thoracic is is a MINIMUM for a real-life defensive shooting situation, you don't know WTF you are talking about. Banning that practice is an egregious disservice to your members.

This is NOT an unsafe practice. Not in any way means or shape or form. There are only unsafe PEOPLE. Bannin those PEOPLE, I'm all in favor of. Banning a totally legit, needful and necessary form of self defense training is FUDDERY at it's worst.

Once again, you're taking the Brady Bunches arguments and running with them. Someone MIGHT do something illegal/irresposible with a gun, so we're just banning the whole deal.

There is ZERO difference. You guys arguing for this stupid point should just join VPC. At least you'd be consistent with your Mala Prohibita BS.

Currently reassessing my previously delivered confidence and compliments regarding self-discipline and good judgement (which might naturally lead me to question my stated faith in claimed shooting skill as well).

However, despite current revelations at hand, I will persist in thinking the very best of people until shown graphically otherwise.