What is a good basic way to shine some ammo

[Dinglenutz]

From American Hunter
https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2012/10/10/is-tumbling-loaded-ammo-dangerous/
Just saying.

Both scientists felt that tumbling was a safe practice within the bounds of reason.

Emphasis added.

 

[edzz]

Both scientists felt that tumbling was a safe practice within the bounds of reason.

Emphasis added.

Both scientists felt that tumbling was a safe practice within the bounds of reason.

Emphasis added.

 

[CLT65]

From American Hunter
https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2012/10/10/is-tumbling-loaded-ammo-dangerous/
Just saying.

It's nice to see an article on the subject that's based on some actual science, rather than theories and assumptions.

I agree about tumbling for the minimal time necessary, and not forgetting and letting them tumble all night, but in reality it's good to know that they would be fine if you forgot and they tumbled all night. I'm not going to say that I've done it, but, well, I've done it.

Added: I'm not recommending tumbling live ammo overnight. Safe or not, it's bad practice. If you have ammo that's that dirty/tarnished, maybe you don't want to shoot it anyhow.

 

[Dinglenutz]

Felt ... within reason.

I feel it's safe within reason too - should I write an article? The bottom line is, they made an informed guess. They don't know, they didn't present any experimental evidence. At least I've done it a little, reasonably, and nothing bad seemed to happen.

I feel they're right, within reason.

It's nice to see an article on the subject that's based on some actual science, rather than theories and assumptions.

What science? This is two scientists guessing - that's not science.

 

[CLT65]

You're right, my mistake. I was thinking more of the actual scientific experiments that many others have done on the issue. I should have said that it was nice to see a reasonable perspective on the issue, rather that a knee-jerk prohibition against a controversial practice, without any actual evidence of harm.

If you look around online, do a search for "Tumbling live ammo", you'll come up with literally dozens of threads on gun forums where it's been vigorously debated for decades.

You'll find threads where people have tumbled various rounds for up to hundreds of hours, pulling them at intervals to photograph the powder under magnification, and shoot some for both velocity and accuracy, all compared to identical non-tumbled control ammo.

All these threads have a couple things in common.
1. There are those who do it without problem
2. There are those who say "OMG! There are manufacturer warnings against this! How dare you?!" and "It's dangerous because these things could happen, in theory, though I have absolutely no scientific evidence, but they could!"

What you never see is anyone who says they did it and blew up their gun. You see people arguing that it's dangerous in theory, and you see others experimenting to see whether those theories hold up under scientific scrutiny. You see a lot of bickering and bruised egos.

As I mentioned before, I don't tumble live ammo myself, not anymore, and I'm not married to the position that it's completely safe under all circumstances. I just find the discussion interesting, and am fascinated to see how the old shooting/reloading "truths" we've all heard hold up when tested.

 

[Dinglenutz]

As I mentioned before, I don't tumble live ammo myself, not anymore, and I'm not married to the position that it's completely safe under all circumstances. I just find the discussion interesting, and am fascinated to see how the old shooting/reloading "truths" we've all heard hold up when tested.

I do, but only to clean the lube off cases, generally 357 Sig. When I load 357 Sig I use a lube die, and I tend to load a lot of rounds. The prospect of toweling off that many (so to speak) in a batch just didn't seem appealing, so I tried a new thing, and it worked.

So that's how I do it now.

If I had some ammo that was so messed up it wouldn't chamber without cleaning, I probably don't want to shoot it at all.

I did order a timer from smile.amazon.com yesterday though

 

[RVTECH]

This part from the article really says it all:

"Powder is hard, it doesn't change shape from any reasonable amount of vibration," said Hornady's Dave Emary. "This notion that you can wear deterrent off of the surface of the powder is a myth, it is impregnated into the powder grains. You can't knock this stuff off."

With regard to the safety aspect, IE possible primer detonation, well, I guess that is a possibility, albeit probably very rare.

 

[Dinglenutz]

With regard to the safety aspect, IE possible primer detonation, well, I guess that is a possibility, albeit probably very rare.

Without being contained in a chamber I doubt it would amount to much anyway.

 

[ma96782]

Tumbling (a final polish) for a short/limited amount of time with safety standards in place.......for FRESH ammo is a known practice for some manufacturers of newly made ammo.

HOWEVER.....
For me.....when dealing with surplus or reloaded or old ammo kept under God only knows what kinds of conditions......well, I'll stick with.....

Do NOT tumble loaded ammo.

Why?

Powder deterioration happens. How much will it/could it change the pressures? Rrrrright.....why not go with.....the various reloading manuals say not to do it and

"Isn't it better to err on the side of caution?"

Aloha, Mark

PS.....am NOT a lawyer nor do I play one on TV. AND, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

So then.....ask a lawyer about the liability of "giving advice" that might be detrimental to one's safety. YUP....there are SOME people out there that say......

"It's a MYTH. You can tumble loaded ammo."

Note: No qualifiers were mentioned. Bottom Line: Up to YOU.

 

[eb in oregon]

I think he's talking about the same story I heard, going back to the end of the 19th century, and cases of .577/450 ammo that were stored near the stables. The story goes that the ammonia from the horse urine caused embrittlement in the cartridge cases.

And that's the problem. Nobody today can either prove or disprove that allegation. Thus another interesting but unprovable factoid and merely supposition. However it is a fact brass and ammonia are not compatible for long.

 

[CLT65]

And that's the problem. Nobody today can either prove or disprove that allegation. Thus another interesting but unprovable factoid and merely supposition. However it is a fact brass and ammonia are not compatible for long.

You might misunderstand me. The British ammo/horse stable/ammonia thing isn't a myth. It's historical fact, as far as I know, fairly well documented as I recall.

I found a reference to it on Wikipedia:
"Season cracking is a form of stress-corrosion cracking of brass cartridge cases originally reported from British forces in India. During the monsoon season, military activity was temporarily reduced, and ammunition was stored in stables until the dry weather returned. Many brass cartridges were subsequently found to be cracked, especially where the case was crimped to the bullet. It was not until 1921 that the phenomenon was explained by Moor, Beckinsale and Mallinson: ammonia from horse urine, combined with the residual stress in the cold-drawn metal of the cartridges, was responsible for the cracking."

 

[CLT65]

Powder deterioration happens. How much will it/could it change the pressures? Rrrrright.....why not go with.....the various reloading manuals say not to do it and

Actually all the scientific evidence that I've seen indicates that powder deterioration does not happen from tumbling.

I did notice in one of those old threads on the subject, on another forum, that you were quite active in the discussion, and quite vocally against tumbling. That's neither here nor there, just interesting to note. No disrespect intended.

I'm all for erring on the side of caution, but I'm also all for truly understanding the facts as well. It's one thing to theorize that something "could" happen, maybe it might, what if it does. It's another to actually test it out and see what really happens. I've seen numerous tests done and they all reach the same conclusion: any remotely reasonable amount of tumbling does not affect the gunpowder. I realize that there are some people who will never accept that conclusion, no matter what, but until they come up with some actual scientific evidence, beyond mere supposition, there's nothing I can do for them. I've found myself in the past becoming vested in an unsupportable position, and it's a blow to the old ego to back off of that position, but sometimes the evidence demands it.

The reality is that the official warnings against it are based on the supposition that powder damage "could" happen, with these companies admitting that they do not do actual testing, and erring on the side of caution.

The actual testing that is done is not done in a laboratory by scientists with expensive test equipment; it's done by laymen doing their best to achieve accurate results with the equipment that they do have, but I've seen enough of these tests to be convinced. If someone can come up with some actual scientific evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it. I have no problem swallowing my pride and admitting when I'm wrong.

 

[ma96782]

Actually all the scientific evidence that I've seen indicates that powder deterioration does not happen from tumbling.

I didn't say that powder deterioration happens as a result of tumbling.*

I said.....
"Powder deterioration happens." **

"SCIENCE and EVIDENCE".....well, The CDC and Dr. Fauci says, _________.

And Rrrrright.

Nothing serious intended.

Aloha, Mark

PS......

*Tumbling (or vibratory machine usage) I used just the word "tumbling" for simplification.

**Remember that can of old powder that had been sitting in the shed, on the shelf, since who knows when? Maybe, I should have said...."Powder deterioration can/could happen." Or maybe......it's a case of, "Some a do and some a don't?"

Then.....it's not like everyone is actually opening each cartridge, inspecting the powder and then re-seating the bullet prior to shooting them.

So then? Is/could the tumbling action, actually contribute (in some way, somewhat, somehow) to the deterioration (or further the process of deterioration)? AND......even if done "just a little". How much, is too much? Could the burning characteristics of the powder have been affected?

Hummmm.......even with this Covid thing. The Nation wants/expects an ABSOLUTE answer. But then.....doesn't SCIENCE require/expect......repeatable and 100% the same results, every time?

Bottom Line: Up to YOU. Do what YOU like.

 

[eb in oregon]

You might misunderstand me. The British ammo/horse stable/ammonia thing isn't a myth. It's historical fact, as far as I know, fairly well documented as I recall.

I found a reference to it on Wikipedia:
"Season cracking is a form of stress-corrosion cracking of brass cartridge cases originally reported from British forces in India. During the monsoon season, military activity was temporarily reduced, and ammunition was stored in stables until the dry weather returned. Many brass cartridges were subsequently found to be cracked, especially where the case was crimped to the bullet. It was not until 1921 that the phenomenon was explained by Moor, Beckinsale and Mallinson: ammonia from horse urine, combined with the residual stress in the cold-drawn metal of the cartridges, was responsible for the cracking."

Interesting, and we all learned that storing ammunition in the worst conditions possible (hot, humid, along with copious amounts of horse urine, and probably on the ground) for maybe months can and has lead to the cracking of ammunition cases. I should have thought that through a little more before responding.

 

[Mikej]

Do tell. I know some Brits who might be interested in this assertion. Unless, of course, you are using those dumb ol' Brits in the manner of the Gotham tales.....

Interesting read! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wise_Men_of_Gotham

 

[Dinglenutz]

I'm all for erring on the side of caution, but I'm also all for truly understanding the facts as well.

This, basically. With additional weight to caution in my case.

 

[Dinglenutz]

I just bought a few items that I intend to use in running an experiment on this topic, but results won't be available for a while.

This bat-channel etc.

 

[Certaindeaf]