What good are citizens w/guns against government tanks?

[GunnyG]

?...

In that context, just what was the newly founded US government thinking when they added the Second Amendment?

To maintain the power of citizens/civilians to rebel against their government when necessary.

I want to preserve the right to armed insurrection against the government IF AND ONLY IF the government turns tyrannical. ...too.

That is just one of the contingencies that our constitutions prepare us for.

Every person who has served in the Armed Forces has sworn to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic..." at least once. The ambiguity within that statement is intentional. We strive to prepare for every contingency, not just a singular specific instance.

Among the many lawful users of the rifles Ed Murray, MDA/MAIG, et al want banned, and all of their accessories, you will also see our guardsmen and reservists, retirees like me and active duty military, out of our own pocket, on our own time, supplementing the 5 days a year of range time for qualification, with practice on our own. Additionally, with the unorganized militia defined in 10 USC 311 and 312, and RCW title 38, there is a very large pool of all those non-affiliated 18+ year old citizens that may be called up for militia duty by the governor or president.

Any other lawful use that we have for firearms is an ancillary benefit of our natural right of self preservation, and those statutes all utilize that ability, to ensure that we can also respond to threats to our community. Diminishing the tools available for an individual's defense, likewise diminishes his ability to lend to the defense of his community.

Just as the second amendment provides for ability to train and equip our citizens for duty in the unorganized militia, in accordance with 10 U.S. Code § 311 - Militia: composition and classes | LII / Legal Information Institute and 10 U.S. Code § 312 - Militia duty: exemptions | LII / Legal Information Institute , we have a corollary at the state level, in RCW 38.04.030: Composition of the militia. and the governor may call up the state's unorganized militia under RCW 38.08.050: Governor may order out unorganized militia.


However, he is only responsible for training and equipping the organized militia, as evidenced by

RCW 38.20.050: Small arms ranges.
"Under the direction of the governor, the adjutant general shall, at the expense and in the name of the state, buy or lease, establish, equip, maintain and control such small arms ranges and issue such ammunition, transportation and supplies as may be necessary to provide each unit of the organized militia of Washington with adequate means and opportunity for thorough instruction in small arms".

Even if the state had the means to arm every 18+ year old male or female that could possibly be called up, it would be useless to do so without them (us) receiving adequate training, which won't be possible under the exigent circumstances that would require a call-up of our unorganized militia.

 

[oknow]

I know there's this rivalry that the Duck fans experience, but that takes it to the next level!

beautiful

 

[ZigZagZeke]

From the article:

In short, it would be a nasty, brutish conflict full of atrocities with no battle lines, no rear areas, no retreat, and little chance for government forces to survive over the long term.

As long as the American public outguns the military—and they do by more than 90 million firearms—no sane government would dare turn on the American people.

This is exactly what I have been telling people who say that personal firearms would be irrelevant against our modern military. It doesn't matter that the government is technologically superior. The result of a conflict over government tyranny would be so physically and politically messy that's it's currently unthinkable. Yes, the government might "win" such a conflict, but the economic and political losses would be devastating. There's no profit in it...UNLESS...the citizens can be disarmed. What this means is that the battle is in the state legislatures and US congress instead of the streets, and that the battle is NOW, not in some hypothetical future apocalypse.

 

[The Heretic]

There is pretty much one primary requirement for any uprising; that it be popular.

Pretty much the majority of people would have to support it.

Even though there are 100 million armed citizens and 300 million firearms, I would estimate that more than two thirds of the populace would not support any kind of armed resistance to the government unless there was a drastic change in how the government worked.

I don't see that happening. Most people are at least content with the status quo. I am - I would not support any kind of "revolution"/etc. the way things are now or the future as I see it.

The government and the power brokers, etc., use what is called "soft power"; influencing the populace with promises and policies that the populace supports. They have no need to be harsh on any significant number of people as long as they stay in power (more or less).

As long as that continues, and I see it no reason it shouldn't continue, "they" will not abandon their current strategy and there will be no popular support for any kind of resistance to the path we are taking.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

"In short, it would be a nasty, brutish conflict full of atrocities with no battle lines, no rear areas, no retreat, and little chance for government forces to survive"

That's the nature of civil war! Hope it never comes to that. We complain about dumb people a lot on this blog because that is often the items that we are pointed to on the threads. It is easy to forget that the U.S. is full of very smart people. The goverment, though, is well aware of it.

 

[Sstrand]

mancat
It looks like there's a, "Hot Time in the Old Town Tonight" . . .

Sheldon

 

[idahoan]

I will put this out there as for some reason people seem to think that mechanized hardware is invincible.
All of these scenarios actually happened, not to our troops but someones.

Scenario one:
A tank is brought in to an urban area to quell violence and to put a military presence in the area. It is sitting in a square roughly 200 feet square with four roads in and out. It is sitting in one of the roads so that it can cover three with the main gun, and the one to its rear with the machine guns. There were occasional rocks and bottles thrown at the tank by the locals but no real attacks on it. The impression was that it was a very successful mission, until a ~5600 pound block of concrete (3ft x 3ft x 5ft) was pushed off the roof of one of the adjacent buildings onto the top of it. It's estimated it hit with 50,000 pounds of force, and it crushed it like a tin can. Now it didn't kill the people in it but it made it immobile and they had to cut it apart to get them out. This is when the attack on it started, they lost most of the people in it, and most of the people that came to get them out.

the second scenario was an APC that was out in the open

A man ran up lobbed what looked like a smoking 10lb bag of sugar onto the top of it, well it wasn't sugar, it was thermite and it cut through that APC like it was butter. In less than 2 seconds it was fully engulfed with no survivors.

If you have been watching the videos coming out of the Ukraine, the wheeled APC that the rioters all simultaneously threw molotovs at, no one survived in that APC.

 

[mjbskwim]

A friend asked what I was goning to do when the helicopters started scraffing houses

A joke How do you tell if there is a pilot in the room?
He'll tell you

OK back to the subject.
All can be handled when you start taking out the houses and families of those pilots or tank commanders?(whatever). They have to eat and sleep. They won't stay out forever.

It would be a hell of a deal taking off from the airport and seeing your house going up in flames

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I want to preserve the right to armed insurrection against the government IF AND ONLY IF the government turns tyrannical. ..

It already is

And if we wait for someone in government to tell us when to restore liberty we will wait a long cold age in hell

 

[GunnyG]

I have faith in my fellow military, to not obey such unlawful orders. You might not take the oath we rendered seriously, but we do.

When those orders are being issued, that is when when we will know it has started.

 

[Steve M]

I have faith in my fellow military, to not obey such unlawful orders.

I hope you are right, but I wouldn't bet on it. WW2 taught us that a mass murderer can be elected to office and an entire country can look the other way while millions of people are murdered. In the end only the high ranking officers are charged with crimes, the guys pulling the triggers and turning the gas valves don't go on trial for following orders that you and I would consider unlawful.

More recently we've learned that our military has no problem following unlawful orders to disarm people in areas of natural disaster.

I do agree with the article though, our entire military is built around battling an overseas military force with established bases of operations and battle lines. What good is a tank when you have nothing to shoot with it? What good are nuclear weapons when half of the people hit will be your own supporters?

 

[Stomper]

I have faith in my fellow military, to not obey such unlawful orders. You might not take the oath we rendered seriously, but we do.

When those orders are being issued, that is when when we will know it has started.

Gunny, I'm with you on that. The majority of our military members are there to serve the country, not just for a "job" or "college money". Let's hope they aren't culled out in some fashion.

 

[Stomper]

I hope you are right, but I wouldn't bet on it. WW2 taught us that a mass murderer can be elected to office and an entire country can look the other way while millions of people are murdered. In the end only the high ranking officers are charged with crimes, the guys pulling the triggers and turning the gas valves don't go on trial for following orders that you and I would consider unlawful.

More recently we've learned that our military has no problem following unlawful orders to disarm people in areas of natural disaster.

I do agree with the article though, our entire military is built around battling an overseas military force with established bases of operations and battle lines. What good is a tank when you have nothing to shoot with it? What good are nuclear weapons when half of the people hit will be your own supporters?

Steve, in "general" you are correct, but there are well documented cases of SS guards of "low rank" and such that were convicted, and just last week on the radio I heard some more of the old farts just had their cover blown in Germany and are up to their necks in it right now... Talk about compound interest that's come due!!

 

[GunnyG]

Gunny, I'm with you on that. The majority of our military members are there to serve the country, not just for a "job" or "college money". Let's hope they aren't culled out in some fashion.

Officers suffer the brunt of it, because once you hit LtCol, things seem to get political.

... But the old saying that "NCOs run the army" applies in every other branch too, (and especially the Marines).

Officer or enlisted, and unlike LE, we haven't ever been offered a "more equal" status when it comes to this civil right. We have relatively short service life limits, and when done, we get the same rights as anyone else.

""Give to every human being every right that you claim for yourself." -Robert Ingersoll

 

[rick benjamin]

"What good are citizens with guns against government tanks?"

Fuel bowsers, food, parts, ammo trucks.
Kill the supply train, stop the tank.

 

[Wood Worker]

They have to breath right.
Fire is not the only thing to remove oxygen.
Think about it.

 

[idahoan]

Gunny I am sorry to tell you that in the military there are plenty of people that would follow that order gleefully, and would relish pulling the trigger.

 

[GunnyG]

Gunny I am sorry to tell you that in the military there are plenty of people that would follow that order gleefully, and would relish pulling the trigger.

I am sorry to hear that you served with such poor examples of humanity and citizenry.

 

[Marine Airedale]

Target rich environment... Bet it wouldn't take long for all them O stickers to disappear from all the cars.

Would that be the Ob... or the UofO ones? LOL

 

[Marine Airedale]

I am sorry to hear that you served with such poor examples of humanity and citizenry.

I am with you on that Gunny! I had the extream honor of serving with some of the best folks on Earth. Being in aviation, both Marines and Sailors. I did not have the honor of being shoulder to shoulder with ground guys during the worst. My proudest memories are bringing in the supplies (usually ammo) they needed and bringing back out wounded. I worked on the beasts and flew as a gunner, usually a pissed off 19 year old behind a M2 or M60 at the folks trying to do my brothers harm.

To a man and yes woman, I can say everyone I had the honor of serving with would be standing shoulder to shoulder against anyone threatening the citizens of this country. We served the citizens, not the government!

Semper Fi Gunny