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What Does " mental defective " mean ?

Discussion in 'Firearm Laws & Legal' started by RicInOR, May 5, 2016.

  1. RicInOR

    RicInOR Washington County Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    [apparently the original link got wedged]

    This is what led me to ask the question a new proposed rule.
    https://www.federalregister.gov/art...f-the-nics-improvement-amendments-act-of-2007



    "As relevant to our programs, the Federal prohibition on the possession or receipt of firearms or ammunition applies to a person who, in the language of the statute, “has been adjudicated as a mental defective."


    These are the existing laws - they already apply and we must comply with them - at time of transfer of FA (and other times like change from being healthy to being 'mental defective' )


    18 U.S.C. 922(g)(4). In these rules, we will refer to this prohibition as the “Federal mental health prohibitor” although we also use the statutory language in section 922(g)(4) in our proposed regulatory language below.

    18 USC 922:
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
    (g)It shall be unlawful for any person—
    (4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;

    see also:
    https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/disarming-the-vets.217499/page-2#post-1429248



    of concern is the phrase -
    "Has been" as opposed to "is"

    Adjudicate: make a formal judgment or decision about a problem or disputed matter.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2016
  2. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    If it has got to the point where a judge rules your mental status is degraded to the point of not being able to trust you with a gun then you have done some stuff and been thru some treatments and probably have a history at that point.

    Same as with the terrorist laws, we don't want them to have dictatorship over those of us the man doesn't like or want to have guns without just cause.
     
  3. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Your first link did not work for me but I presume it is when you are hospitalized against your will because you are a threat to yourself or others (suicidal) and you need 2 physicians to independently confirm this and then it goes to a judge who orders the hold

    You also do something similar for cases like dementia. If an elderly patient is unable to make their own medical or financial decisions because of severe alzheimers or something similar you have the patient assessed by a neurologist who makes the recommendation and then it is brought before court and the judge makes the decision to give power of attorney to a family member or caregiver
     
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  4. RicInOR

    RicInOR Washington County Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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  5. RicInOR

    RicInOR Washington County Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Back to the idea of "Mental Defective"

    This is currently the law.

    Let us say I want to sell Joe a Motorcycle. Is he mentally defective ?
    Bolus, in the medical profession, may view riding 'donor cycles' as a self-harming act.

    Now, where would that leave Joe, or me for that matter?

    No medical exam - this can be an administrative adjudication.



    What if someone went thru a life change - ex. loss of an arm following an accident. You might see them in counseling. Part of the healing process. If for part of that time, they were getting advised to get a disability claim with our government - SSA. Could that then trigger the "mental defect"
    Would it stay? Or once the treatment completed would it naturally be lifted?
    More likely, could you apply to have it lifted (I doubt the gov. would ever just do that)



    Bolus brings up age related mental issues. An elderly patient may not be able to handle their finances. But they are able to care for themselves (or do so with assistance) . Is this "metal defect" They might have applied to the SSA to get their checks deposited to a care-giver.


    Anyways - What would make me not able to sell a FA to someone - what is that 'mental defect' and since part of the law is posses - when do I have to take (buy) FA from an elderly parent -- which I can already see leading to some ugly battles like what happens upon death without a will.
     
  6. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Oh I dont agree with the BS he (Obama) is trying to pull here. If I had a family member with dementia who would be totally unsafe around a firearm (or car or throwing knives) I would place the firearms in a safe place. Hopefully, I would be smart enough to have a discussion with them well before they were demented on what they would want me to do with the firearms if they were ever not able to be safe around them.

    I dont need the government to come up with some sort of blanket decision on this issue.

    Its the same reason I dont want the government telling what I can and cant do in the office. we are not all identical clones. we all have very different needs and require individual solutions to problems. But that's still what they are trying to do.
     
  7. billdeserthills

    billdeserthills Cave Creek, Arizony Well-Known Member

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    As I understand it the feds are trying to target anyone with a signer on their checks
    it all just sounds like 'Cold, Dead Hands', to me
     
  8. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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  9. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    mentally defective
    (adjective)
    Referring to a person who has been determined by a court, board, commission or other lawful authority—as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition or disease—as one who:
    (1) Is a danger to him- or herself, or to others; or
    (2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his or her own affairs.
     
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  10. nammac

    nammac I-5 Corridor - West of Portland Silver Supporter Silver Supporter

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    Well by the definition of (1) above, everyone who fiddles with their smart phone while driving fits that description... A danger to themself or others...:eek:

    Sorry, I just couldn't let it go...:)
     
  11. Qaolin

    Qaolin 1 A.U. from a G2 near Beaverton Old Army Cook Silver Supporter

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    Actually, I would consider an unnatural attachment to your phone as a sign of addiction, hence a mental illness. When your phone masters you rather than you mastering your phone you become a walking/driving hazard to everyone around you; you walk into traffic,walk into trains, etc when all your attention is on playing Candy Crush.
     
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  12. nammac

    nammac I-5 Corridor - West of Portland Silver Supporter Silver Supporter

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    At a CCA (Candy Crush Annoynmous) meeting.... My name is Melvin, and I'm a Candy Crush addict.... :eek:

    I walked in front of a Tri-Met train because I was consumed with getting past level 99...
     
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  13. Mark W.

    Mark W. Silverton, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    An example. My father inlaw retired USAF sgt. steady drinker. Long about 70 started loosing his mental faculties as they say. When he got to the point he couldn't remember his kids names and thought he was a Police officer fighting the Germans during WWII he was as they say Mental Defective and his son and I went and emptied his gun safe. Now granted the family did that no court or government involved. But had we not been there no telling what could have happened in those few weeks before we got him into the Nursing home.
     
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  14. RicInOR

    RicInOR Washington County Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    This idea applies to a large number of areas.
    example - in a group home, if the residents are of legal age (over 21, say) but deficient. If they have sex, (they see it on TV)
    Is that rape - because they cannot consent?
    Or not, because they can't know what rape is (or the consequences)


    What I keep coming back to, is that all of us go thru a period of time where we are not ourselves. Perhaps at the loss of a loved one.

    Loss of a Job.
    Why can we have 90+ million work age people not in the workforce yet so few on unemployment. Many of them have applied for and gotten disability - can't work - due to something - stress? In order to get that disability, someone had to decide they 'qualify' for it. That is adjudication. Depression + Ask for Help + Get Help = Mental Defect ?
    Should all of them be subject to a police raid to remove the FA they cannot currently lawfully posses.
     
  15. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    No.
     
  16. Qaolin

    Qaolin 1 A.U. from a G2 near Beaverton Old Army Cook Silver Supporter

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    That is adjudication in the broadest definition of the word. Let's take the example of someone suffering from depression as exemplified by @RicInOR. In this case the request for aid comes from the patient voluntarily; I know something of this from personal experience. Since no court order was involved this is not an adjudicated case. When I submitted myself for a little psychological R&R several years ago (it was the lowest point in my life) there was no suspension of my rights post release. Sure, my medical file has a note about it but that does not preclude me filling out on a 4473 marking the "no" box on the mental health question.

    Now, will the antis push for a firearm ban for ANY mental health treatment? No doubt in my mind that given the opportunity they will push for it, which is why we need to fight against any change in the HIPPA rules.
     
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  17. wired

    wired Yakima Well-Known Member

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    I don't expect anyone here to agree with me but I'm going to be the odd fellow who doesnt have any problem at all with the proposed regs. If you actually take the time to read them and understand that they apply to those who are on SSI for mental illness reasons with a whole slew of qualifiers to get to the point where you are put on the NICS list. If you are so bad off that you are getting social security payments for mental illness reasons and also meet all the qualifiers you are mentally ill. You didnt get there by accident. It takes a long time and lots of leg work to get to the point where you receive social security disability payments. Its a paycheck. If you get to that point you have a mental illness of high order and should not own firearms.Read the proposal. Read the qualifiers and the appeals process and dont just buy the NRA spin without doing some research.
     
  18. billdeserthills

    billdeserthills Cave Creek, Arizony Well-Known Member

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    Before I'd agree I need to see how many of these folks have allowed their gun to cause a problem
    The framers of our Constitution had folks who suffered from similar illnesses including mental infirmity, and yet they still favored the second amendment as I do. I would understand if these folks are creating a crime wave with their weapons and something needs to be done, but I highly doubt that to be the case...
     
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  19. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    When's the last time the news said that a shooting spree was the cause of a mental patient?


    If that were the case they would have a field day with ito_O.
     
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  20. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I did that for my mother when she asked me to take all of my dad's guns after her started suffering from Alzheimers and a few other issues. He wasn't happy about it, but it needed to be done.