What do you use?

Oregon Rob · Feb 6, 2011

25 yards is a long hallway! I'm thinking 5 yards is much more likely distance for home defense.
100 or so pellets inside a 6" circle traveling 1400 fps, threat neutralized.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/amm.html#shotgraphic

andy* · Feb 6, 2011

Yes 25 yards is a long hallway. I used that as an test to see how the load would work at extreme range. I also know how my gun patterns at 5- 10 yards with #1 buck. I do agree 25 yards is not a likely shot for home defense however I do have some experience in house to house combat and 25 yards was the range at which we practiced at in the Army at the time I was in. I still say bird shot is for birds and buck shot for bigger things. Andy

iusmc2002 · Feb 6, 2011

Wally-world "bulk" #7 shot. Its not going to overpenetrate my walls, its not going to knock my wife on her *** like buck and slugs do, and it WILL stop whatever she's shooting at. A deer at less than 20 yards charging at you? Yeah, a load or two of #7's is going to stop it.

mjbskwim · Feb 6, 2011

As the one starting the "bird shot" theory on here,I have to ask,do you think you are getting away with only one click of my shotgun?
Maybe 5?
3 of my favorite rules for home defense are the 6/12 rule,dead men tell no tales,and if it's moving,it's a threat.
If one load of bird shot doesn't make the ninja stop moving,4 more most definitely will.

But if I did use a shot gun,I would have slugs in it.No problem with over penetration at my place
I'm just arguing the point that most any shot load,with proper placement,will indeed stop a threat at in house distances.

andy* · Feb 6, 2011

I never said birdshot would not work but that I think buckshot is better. Nor do I think anyone would stop with one shot if the threat is still there.
But why use birdshot if other, better options exist where you might not need follow up shots ? If you are happy with using birdshot and are aware of how it patterns out of your gun then so be it. The question was "What do you use?" I answered #1 buck. The point I was trying to make was that yes birdshot can be lethal but buckshot is lethal. And I for one with my gun prefer #1 buck as it shoots the best from my gun. Use what you want in your gun... Andy

mjbskwim · Feb 6, 2011

Golly,why do people get so upset when someone says something different than them?

I never said you said BS would not work,or that anyone would stop at one shot
I also stated that I would use slugs cause I don't need to worry where the round will end up.Everyone is far enough away.

I am not happy with bird shot,but it would work just fine.I never believe all the hype of any round.

And I realize what the question was and that you answered that question.Both loads are lethal when use correctly.

And I do most everything like I want.

Don't take this sh*it personally man.It's just a forum,nobody's telling you to do anything.

Peace and the force be with you.

unsubscribe button "click"

DoubleTapDrew · Feb 6, 2011

From the tests I've read the best option that reached the minimum penetration depth (12") the FBI requires and still has a good number of pellets is #1 buck. 00 buck is a lot easier to find though.
I don't like the idea of birdshot for home defense. You can make an ugly shallow wound but if the BG is on drugs and feeling no pain you may be in trouble. If the shot won't penetrate a couple sheets of sheetrock how is it magically going to penetrate the important organs of a bad guy?
IMO using light shot is making some dangerous assumptions:
#1: The bad guy is not on drugs and will have an "OMG I just got shot" reaction and will turn around and run the other way
#2: The bad guy is going to be "put down" by the light shot. People only get knocked down by gunfire in Hollywood. In most shootings people don't even know if they hit the assailant until after the fact.
Light shot may contain 1 1/8oz. of lead (or steel) but the penetration is still dependant on the weight of each of those little pellets, it's not a slug, nor will it act like one, even at close range.
This is what Ol Painless at the box o truth has to say about it:

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 2

I've been accidentally shot with #6 at longer range. It stings a little, didn't leave any marks. Very glad it wasn't buckshot.
Also keep in mind, if your load won't penetrate drywall...every wall in your house becomes cover for the bad guy. Will his rounds in your direction penetrate walls? I think a better option would be to determine "safe" fields of fire ahead of time. Don't shoot at your children's bedrooms.

Dutchy556 · Feb 6, 2011

DoubleTapDrew makes some good points. I don't know where this idea that hundreds of individual pellets weighing in at a combined 1 1/8 oz total will behave the same as a solid 1 1/8 oz projectile comes from but they don't. That's not conjecture, thats physics.

While the bird shot may penetrate 5 or 6 inches of gelatin (which still doesn't meet established FBI minimums) that doesn't take into account clothing or bone. Birdshot just isn't sufficient to penetrate the sternum/ribs, reach vital organs and stop a threat. Will it stop someone? Maybe psychologically, but you're almost guaranteed not physiologically.

This has been argued about forever on the internet, and quite frankly I'm surprised to see so many people who are so adamant about using ammunition designed to kill small birds to shoot people to this day. I don't even use a shotgun for self defense so I don't really have a dog in the fight... but for your own safety I would suggest you educate yourself a bit more on terminal ballistics before choosing birdshot to defend your life or that of your family - I'm sorry, I hate to add any more sand to anyone's you-know-whats, but this is just insane.

To answer the OP's question - my choice for social ammo in a 12ga is 00 Buck - tried, true, and readily available. For interior use something like Winchester Ranger Low Recoil 00 is an excellent choice. If the potential for longer engagements exists something like Federal's LE FliteControl 00 is a solid performer which I've seen produce amazing patterns out of 18" and 20" cylinder bores out to 35m+. My suggestion would be to try a variety of loads and see how they pattern out of your weapon, and in the case of semis how reliably they cycle. Longer shots, say 50-100, call for slugs - but you've got a pretty big place if you're shooting that far in a HD scenario.

the4thshake · Feb 6, 2011

I have shot plenty of birds with birdshot. Often times the pellets don't even go all the way through a bird. Birdshot is for birds. Buckshot is for bad guys. My choice for in the home is #1 buckshot. If overpenetration isn't an issue 00 is even better. I areas where overpenetration is an extreme issue I would drop down to #4 buckshot but that is as far as I am willing to go.

salmonriverjohn · Feb 7, 2011

Lots of good info folks, thank you much.

sweetbeard · Feb 7, 2011

PDX-1

YouTube - 12 Gauge - Winchester PDX-1 - Shotgun Ammo Test

1bigfoot · Feb 7, 2011

Not to many years back my wife came running in the house screaming somthing was after her goats, I went for the first thing beside the back door, a 12 Ga. loaded with number 4 buck. What I saw running away at about 30 yards recieved a quick shot, it went down and started flipping around. When I walked up to finish it,, much to my suprise it wasnt a coyote, it was a cougar around 100 lbs. It didnt require a second shot. While I wouldnt recommend hunting cougars with #4, it went down like a cheap Army cot. I still use 4,s in my shotgun.

FlyFish59 · Feb 7, 2011

I've been using 00 buck for years but just picked up some #1 buck. Have not had to blast the caps on any ne'er-do-wells yet though so it's all theoretical so far.

DeanMk · Feb 12, 2011

salmonriverjohn said:
What home defence shot size would you choose for your 12 ga. shotgun?

Depends.
If I'm in an apartment situation, or if I had a family, then I'd choose your standard Rabbit and Squirrel load with #8's, or a target load of #9's with a shell length of 2.75".
Within 30-35 feet (which you should consider the maximum distance between you and the perp), these are as devistating as anything else. The nice thing is that the pellets are easily stopped by wallboard and insulation.
Thus, neighbors and loved ones are safe(r) from overpenetration.
If its just me that lives in the house and there's no neighbors within a reasonable distance, AND I don't care about knocking holes in the walls, then I'd probably go for BB's and a 3" shell length.
Shotguns work off of the density of the pellet pattern. BB's are a nice compromise between individual pellet weight and the density of the pattern.
Lastly, if I had removable chokes on that shotgun, I'd keep the "CYL" choke installed at all times, for home defense use.

Dean

billdeserthills · Feb 12, 2011

salmonriverjohn said:
Thanks all! I've been stuffing the old pump with #4 buck for years. A very dear old friend who has long since passed away advised me to use this set up for 30yds and under. In his words "son when things get a little intense, you wont miss", and I was curious to know what others thought. Thanks

Sounds good to me,
I really like the 3" Magnum 12 Ga ammo in #4 Buck

centerfire · Feb 12, 2011

#1 buck for me

marty8587 · Feb 12, 2011

I have these centurians with a bib ball and then 6 or 7 smaller balls around them. They look awsome but I have yet to shoot them. In quantity they are around $1.00 each.