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What defines a gun/weapon in "legal" gun free zones?

Discussion in 'Defensive Carry & Self Defense' started by Joe13, May 23, 2016.

  1. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Legal gun free zones being inside schools, inside the 21 and over part of a bar, metal health buildings and government buildings (here in WA).

    Can you pull the Mag and put that in your pocket before you lock the gun in your car?

    Would that be considered a weapon?

    I only ask because it makes me feel better to know if my car is stolen and lock box is broken into then at least they have to go buy a mag and ammo for the gun before they can use it.
     
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  2. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    my understanding is a mag and/or ammo are not considered weapons or firearms by the ATF

    I imagine its possible state laws could interpret that differently but I doubt it.

    I like your idea and reason for wanting to take the mag with you....
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
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  3. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    It's a little different here in Oregon as with a CHL, I can lawfully carry in a school or a bar. That said, the question you're asking is really based around state laws, so it's the state that must define the terms. If it were an ATF question, such as interstate transfer of firearms, then it's up to the ATF to define those terms as they apply to their rules/laws. In Oregon, those rules/laws are found in the OAR's (Oregon Administrative Rules), in Washington, it's the RCW's (Revised Code of Washington). Thankfully, access to both is easily available with a web search, though it helps if you can guide your search terms to help get you where you're going.

    For Washington, all the rules regarding Guns/Weapons are found in RCW, Title 9, Chapter 9.41. Specifically, section 9.41.010 defines a number of terms including 'firearm','gun', 'pistol', 'rifle', 'short barreled rifle', etc. This is found here: RCW 9.41.010: Terms defined. (http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010) This section does not cover the term 'weapon'. Where a term is not covered in the 'definition' section, it can sometimes be found contained in the rest of the sections.

    So without reading through the whole thing, I did find section 9.41.250 which covers 'Dangerous Weapons - Penalty'. Here, additional terms are added to clarify 'weapon' such as 'slung shot', 'sand club', 'metal knuckles' and 'spring blade knife'. Here is a link to that section: RCW 9.41.250: Dangerous weapons—Penalty. (http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.250)

    It's probably best to just keep a link to the entire 9.41 section of the RCW handy as it should answer any questions you have with regard to firearms and weapons in Washington: Chapter 9.41 RCW: FIREARMS AND DANGEROUS WEAPONS (http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41)

    To your question, since your loaded magazine, without the gun, would not fall under the definition of 'firearm' according to RCW 9.41.010, then I would say you are likely safe doing what you do. That also further clarifies what a 'loaded' gun/firearm is, but does not call out anywhere that I can see, a loaded magazine or clip as a gun/firearm. As always, if you're really concerned, consult a proper attorney ;)

    When it comes to interpreting state codes, something I do regularly for my job, you have to read them carefully to understand their meanings, and you need to read their definitions as they are usually carefully crafted to cover as much as possible. It's also good to understand terms like 'may' and 'shall' as they have very different meanings - 'may' means you can, but are not required, 'shall' means you are required.

    While I despise much of government and their wasteful ways, I do find these sections sometimes interesting reading. And, in reality, I think most folks should read through them at least once, just to make sure they know what limits their government is placing on them :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
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  4. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Kind of a good thought but how hard is it...with most guns...to drive down the block and get a new mag and a box of ammo?
    I would lock the mag in the trunk or put it in a different part of the car. And I would guess most of the mooks they have working the check points would get as upset as if you had a gun.
    But then again I have never checked a gun in at any of these type places.
     
  5. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    I think Joes idea is a good idea, consider passing thru a GFZ is temporary anyways.
    1 magazines (and SD ammo) are expensive... and would be one less thing to replace when you go buy the replacement gun.
    2 the villan cant immediately use the gun, it may even be less appealing for him to take it.... probably not though but still, he cant immediately use the gun and it also makes it harder for him to sell it off.
    2 finding spare mags can be problematic depending on the gun.... a Glock probably not so much, but I dont know many LGSs that stock a huge assortment of mags for the less popular guns and a probibited person isnt going to want to have a paper trail from ordering mags....


    if I recall correctly, a prohibited person also cannot possess parts or ammo as well?
     
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  6. PiratePast40

    PiratePast40 Willamette Valley Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that putting something in the trunk is a great idea. My wife used to do that with her purse all the time at restaurants and other places. To me, that's just advertising when you get out of the car in the parking lot, pop the trunk, put something inside, and then walk away.

    "..if I recall correctly, a prohibited person also cannot possess parts or ammo as well?"
    But mothers against whatever the 'ell they're against today, are perfectly fine with words on paper saving lives. If they pass more laws, then the criminals certainly won't break them, right? If it saves just one life ...:rolleyes:

     
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  7. Martini_Up

    Martini_Up NW USA Well-Known Member

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    'legal gun-free' is an oxymoron in the U.S.A. so I won't engage in this discussion.

    :p
     
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  8. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    It was the best way I could think to phrase it:(. Screw you guys, I'm going home:D:p.

    The guns I carry are all not popular guns and someone would have to order the mags from the company or maybe eBay.

    I'm not sure I would try to go into the courthouse with a loaded mag in my pocket - those are unfortunately (or fortunately as I rarely find myself going thru a metal detector) the only times I intentionally leave my firearms at home and only take a knife that can be tossed in the glove box.
     
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  9. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    by the way, in Multnomah county its illegal to possess a loaded magazine without an Oregon CHL, regardless if you even have the gun with you. Although still not considered a weapon, this is the oddest thing I’ve ever seen regulating loaded magazines.
     
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  10. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Think about your last sentence.
    The guy just stole a gun and he cares if he's supposed to have a mag or ammo?
    o_O
     
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  11. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I think he was saying a loaded mag in a bag or pocket without a CCL is illegal in that county - while that is not the case in my area, it's close enough to be of concern if I didn't have my OR Permit.
     
  12. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    that last sentence was supporting the reasons above it. Of course a thief wouldn’t care, but the point was is the thief is leaving a paper trail if he cant find a spare mag over the counter at the store.
     
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  13. Asp

    Asp Oregon, the promise land. Active Member

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    Show me the law, please. :)
     
  14. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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  15. Asp

    Asp Oregon, the promise land. Active Member

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    Here is the section.
    Thanks Koda.

    15.064 Possession of a Loaded Firearm in a Public Place.

    (A) It is unlawful for any person in a public place, to carry a firearm upon the person, or while in a vehicle in a public place, unless all ammunition has been removed from the chamber and from the cylinder, clip, or magazine. A person who violates this section is subject to penalty even if the person did not know that ammunition was in the cylinder, chamber, clip or magazine.

    (B) The prohibitions of subsection (A) of this section do not apply to or affect: ​

    (1) Those listed in ORS 166.173(2).
    (2) Licensed hunters engaged in lawful hunting.
    (3) Persons engaged in target shooting at an established shooting range, shooting gallery or other area designed and built for the purpose of target shooting.
    (4) A government employee authorized or required by his or her employment or office to carry firearms.
    (5) A security guard employed at a financial institution insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation while the security guard is on duty.
    (6) A person with written authorization from the Multnomah County Sheriff or his designee. ​

    (C) It is unlawful for any person who possesses a firearm, clip or magazine in or upon a public place, or while in a vehicle in a public place, to refuse to permit a peace officer to inspect that firearm, clip or magazine after the peace officer has identified himself or herself as such. The prohibitions of this subsection do not apply to or affect the persons listed in subsection (B) of this section.




    166.173¹
    Authority of city or county to regulate possession of loaded firearms in public places

    (1)A city or county may adopt ordinances to regulate, restrict or prohibit the possession of loaded firearms in public places as defined in ORS 161.015 (General definitions).

    (2)Ordinances adopted under subsection (1) of this section do not apply to or affect:

    (a)A law enforcement officer in the performance of official duty.

    (b)A member of the military in the performance of official duty.

    (c)A person licensed to carry a concealed handgun.


    (d)A person authorized to possess a loaded firearm while in or on a public building or court facility under ORS 166.370(Possession of firearm or dangerous weapon in public building or court facility).

    (e)An employee of the United States Department of Agriculture, acting within the scope of employment, who possesses a loaded firearm in the course of the lawful taking of wildlife. [1995 s.s. c.1 §4; 1999 c.782 §8; 2009 c.556 §3]​
     
  16. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    yes, I know about the CHL exception, I even stated that in my post above it was for those "without a CHL"
     
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  17. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    update: after re-reading the ordinance I may be slightly mis-interpreting it to say even if you don’t have the actual firearm with you.

    The city of Portland also has the same ordinance but its worded slightly different which can lend to confusion, I think that version is where I interpreted it to include a loaded magazine sans pistol.
    http://www.portlandoregon.gov/citycode/article/332592?
    14A.60.010 B. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess or carry a firearm and that firearm’s clip or magazine, in or upon a public place, including while in a vehicle in a public place, recklessly having failed to remove all the ammunition from the clip or magazine.

    I think the conclusion of both is without a CHL the magazines must also be empty. I think the "common sense" idea here is that someone heading out to commit "gun violence" has to take the extra time to stop and load mags upon arrival or will stay home because he cant take the loaded mags with him... :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
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